I agree with some of that but not all.I believe the foot slides most of the time,on the Initial lunges.Otherwise,the foot pad would be flat on the pan when you get there.Now understand,I am only talking about cats and canines in this discussion.

I know when I get a catch where the jaws are against the back of the heel pad,that the footlikely slid some.No big deal.That is exactly what I want.The heel pad is a stop for the jaws and the jaws are across 4 phalanges that have multiple tendons on top and bottom.Those Phalanges are about 1/4" thick on coyotes and cats-perfect for a well designed offset.Couple that with non-sharp jaw edges that can't cut skin and tendons and a center swivel that doesn't encourage sliding.and you have the formula for right behind the heel pad catches that don't slide.

Toe catches come mostly from low or no pan tension .This can be coupled with an oversize pan or a sloppy dog that slides forward when the pan is depressed,giving the animal more time in his lung to get away and cats and canines are lightning fast when that trap. Fires or in some cases,starts to.

Another point I will make is that most States are studying the APHIS reports and are gradually shifting that way.I mentioned before,some stares have already mandated offset jaws.Here in Mo ntana we are mandated to have center swiveling on land traps.We are all going to get there if we live long enough.They have also been trying for a jaw thickness requirement and we will eventually get there to.Any new traps I buy will have these features .Again,I am only referring to traps for canines and cats.If you are in mountain lion country you will have almost all toe catches on them (stepping on jaw and pan at the same time).There reaction time isn't as lightning fast as a bobcat.

I will add,bobcat toes and feet are more flexible than canines and if toe caught in an offset jaw trap,some can pull out.That is why tuning is important.Good pan tension and little slop at the dog eye,plus proper guiding should remedy most or all of those toe catches.

My belief as well. The only two situations where an offset is any advantage is in states where they are required by law (ignorant) or maybe if you caught a bird it maybe wouldn't hurt their foot as bad, maybe!

Occasionally the forming of the offset will increase the surface area where it touches the foot, this will decrease their holding ability as well. Wide jaw faces disperse the pressure of the jaws on the foot.

I don't think the offset levers rising higher in actual use helps at all. In theory maybe but in practice I doubt it highly. If the levers and jaws are designed correctly the levers will lock up and hold the animal just as well in regular jawed traps.

When it comes to foot injury the live market trappers are the ones I listen too. Theories go out the window when the money is on the line.

I will disagree with the levers locking up,ADC.If the closed jaw levers are against the stop with no foot in,they will be noticeably lower with a foot in.I have posted plenty of pictures of bobcat and coyote feet in offset jaw traps where the levers were against the stop or at least within 1/16" of it.There is a noticeable difference.

Often my MB550s bind up so tight at the top that I can't break them loose by hand,though I set them by hand.I may be old but my grip isn't completely gone yet.I'm only talking about cats,red fox and coyotes.I have yet to see any evidence of sliding.

For 60 years,I have both jaw styles with pretty good results,but now only use offsets for the above mentioned animals.Of the offset jawed traps I have used,the MB550 has shown the least .Foot damage.Some others have shown improvement after doctoring the jaw edges to have the same radius as the MB550s and a similar gap.

I have no experience with the closed jaw MB550's.It would be interesting to run a side by side comparison.I bet they would hold their own with any closed jaw trap.

I do know that one of our members here that I respect,reports more foot damage(on red fox) with his MB550's than his cast jaw MB650's.I stated I had just the opposite result.We determined he was using closed jaw MB550's and mine were offset.He was catching 4 or 5 fox per season and I was taking 12 to 20.Just an example.I don't know if it means anything.

I trapped the SC live market for 15 years we only had coyotes In the last 2 years of that time. So our catch was mostly reds and greys. Reds bringing $100.00 and greys bringing $25.00 If you could find a market.
My go to trap was the 1.75 Duke I removed the larger pan and went to a round pan that was quite a bit smaller. I started out with outside laminations I still had some foot damage but It wasn't much but I did have some fox rejected because of It. So the next year I Inside laminated my traps and that for the most part took care of 95% of the damage. But There Isn't a trap In the world that Is going to give you no foot damage.
I had 3 swivels In those short chains and I did one other thing to some of those traps. Instead of hooking up to the J hook In the hole at the end of the trap frame I welded a chain link to the end of the frame and let It stick out about a 1/2". That allowed me to hook up my chain with a J hook to that chain link. The reason I did this Is because That J hook In the trap frame was always clogging up and In some case stopped every bit of swivel action at that point. The chain link addition pretty much solved that swiveling problem. That small hole was the culprit.
And I never used a offset jawed trap in the live market. Been there done It guys.

Hey everybody. I didn't mean to start an arguement just looking for some advice.
I trapped some when I was a kid, and I trapped some when my kid was a kid. Now just hoping to do a little trapping, and have some fun, when I am nearing retirement

Anyhow thanks for all your posts.

I guess part of the fun is figuring it out for yourself.

There are some people that wish they could have trapped for a living. Then there are some people that did trap for a living. I just want to have a little fun in my, I hate to admit, in my senior years. Better than going to Vegas.

Thanks again for all your input,

Onyx

That is totally different from fur trapping and has very little beating on holding power of the traps. If you want to sell the feet them you have to use equipment that will be easier on the animal, however easier on the foot means less holing ability. It's science not speculation. Try a simple test, put your finger in a fully modified trap with wide smooth jaws and center swiveled , when you try to pull your finger out you want it in the top center of the jaw and the wide jaws are smooth and easier to pull out of. Now put that finger in a regular jaw trap and pull it out by pulling your finger to the side of the trap down into the corner where the jaws are even tighter. I know which one I'd rather try to pull my finger out of.

That said, obviously modified traps still hold well enough to not lose your catches.

Just because the lever rises higher doesn't mean its not locked up on the levers that are slightly lower. Close a trap down as tight as it would be on the critters foot then see if you can pull the jaws back open. If the trap is designed correctly you will not be able to open them.

Hey everyone. Let us stop bickering.

Let us this enjoy our sport.

It is a thin line between sport and financial return.

When I was young venison, small game, and fish meant food.

When I bought my first turkey tag I realized that Turkey hunting was a sport because I could buy a butterball for less than the cost of my license,

This was a real eye opener got me.

Let us this have fun and respect each other's opinions.

Onyx

I agree 100%, well said

Its OK Onyx. We're all adults. These guys are entitled to their wrong opinions. lol We're entitled to point it out. lol

I am enjoying my sport and don't need everyone to agree with me.Just pointing out my observations.It's all good.I don't think we were bickering.That is my wrong opinion.

Everyone has different experiences...it’s how I learn. I enjoy posts like this.

It does have me curious on what to do with my bridger #2s. They are all offset which I would rather have regular jaws. I would like to base plate and center swivel them but The Beav pointed out that center swiveling offset jaws allows toe caught coyotes to get away. I may just laminate the jaws to help with that issue.

I've only caught one coyote in a closed jaw trap (modified #2 Bridger) but I remember that coyote's foot was swollen way more than 99% of the ones I catch in offsets. Maybe it was coincidence.

Laminations provide more comfort to the animal with the initial hit when the trap jaws close on the foot. It just spreads out that power and lessens then hit. Same with those nice wide cast jaws.
But They don't In my opinion hold better then a regular squared off jaw face so lets back up a bit. Now If you laminate with round stock you lessen the holding power to a point. If you laminate with square stock It helps your traps holding power.
Here's a example. Take a pencil and hold It as tight as you can against your finger that is placed on a hard surface. Then try and pull your finger out. Then do the same thing with the edge of a ruler. So If you increase that square edge you have more surface against the foot so your going to increase your holding power and Increase comfort to a point. . But remember this It's still all about the square edges.
But the bottom line Is this, If you get a catch above the pad on a fox coyote or cat It's not going to pull out because of the shape of the foot. In most cases that also pertains to a good solid pad catch but here Is when the square edges shine.

Well that's my thought on the subject.

T-Rex.I don't want t beat this to death anymore but laminating will not increase holding power it distributes pressure in hopes of mitigating any damage.Nothing wrong with laminating.It just won't do what you are wanting.If you want no or few toe catches,set a good pan tension for your target species,crimp the eye of the dog so it doesn't creep forward with the pan.Pan creep is like creep in a rifle trigger or a boxer telegraphing a punch.I have always been able to deal with creep in a rifle trigger but a coyote won't put up with it.You need a crisp,sudden break.

Cats and coyotes are lightning fast and sometimes when they walk up,on solid ground and then step on a spot that drops,if it isn't a fast,clean break,they can pull back faster than you would think.This can cause toe catches or one lunge pullouts.so learn how to adjust those traps,bed them solidly,guide when you can and don't worry about toe catches.I don't think toe catches are as common as you may be thinking and some times you can do everything right and still get one.

Now if you want a closed jaw trap,consider taking one trap and put a few file strokes on the lugs that create the offset.Don't get too crazy on the first one.Even if you get the gap to 1/8",it will work the same as a closed jaw.You can get them down to a closed jaw but keep an eye on the step that stops the lever.Some may be too shallow to take it all the way to the closed position.Just tinker with one trap and see.

If you end up with an uneven gap,that can be fixed.Say the middle touches but there is still some gaps at the ends,put a steel rod in the tightest spot and use a vice to squeeze in those gaps.This is easier than it sounds.If you have a slight gap in the center but the ends are closed put a rod in both tight spots and use the vice to squeeze in the middle.

You can also replace jaws on many traps for not too much money.Anyway,learn to adjust those traps and I don't think you will have many toe catches.Good luck with it.

I think a lot of this depends on your trap check frequency. All these guys trapping for the live market are mostly running a 24 hour check. With that type of check time and as long as you don't use oversized traps the closed jaws hold tight without any wiggle room and prevent damage. With 48-72 hour checks you are going to get some badly swollen feet in closed jaw traps from restriction of circulation, and frozen feet in cold weather.

Now personally I like to check my canine (coyote and wolf) traps every three days to keep human scent and disturbance down around them. I'm a houndman and not only do I hunt where I trap, but other people do to, so I'm very concious of the consequences if you catch a dog. Usually a hound won't be in a trap that long before the owner comes along and lets them out, because they have tracking collars on them. Still, I'm using large powerful traps (even my coyote traps I want to hold a wolf, because most areas I set could reasonably have a wolf come through and I don't want them to get pinched and pull out) so I run all offsets. I've never had a broken bone on a coyote or wolf, and I've had my dogs caught in a number of traps over the years. Always someone else's traps, I've never caught my own in my own traps amazingly enough. I've never had one hurt, and they"ve been caught in both offset and regular jawed traps, but never a closed jawed trap over a #3 and I know one dog spent an hour or two in a closed jawed #3 before I got there to release her and her foot was already swelled up. No long term damage, but if she would have spent the night there her foot would have froze. Old guy I hunted with as a kid had a three legged hound, froze it's foot off in a trap, that was before we had tracking collars. I'd personally be leery of a closed jawed trap in the #4 1/2 to #5 range or even larger doing permanent damage to either bones or in particular ligaments. So in my opinion running the big traps, even those big coyote traps like MB 650s, NOBS, etc. that are equivalent to #4 or even a powerful #3 I would opt for offset jaws.

Laminated or cast do seem to do less damage also, can't really say how much difference in holding power they have, although they do strengthen up a jaw so if you pinch something big like a wolf or lion they don't bend them as easily.

Taxi gives great advice from real life experience with real animals with extended checks. I've done a lot of experimenting with offset gap size for various species. Overall 3/16th work best for yotes and fox with 3/8th to 1/2 jaw thickness. Slippage is caused by not enough spring power balanced to the jaw thickness or the trap design itself. That's from thousands off animals trapped, even dogs and cats. Do this ounce, stick 3 fingers in a closed jaw 4 coil trap then an offset . You'll answer your own question.

Lamed jaws or cast, Cast no contest... Reason more actual contact.. and cast isn't smooth, the casting makes the surface rough..

Raccoon are a whole different deal, long chains help a bunch but every coon reacts different. My favorite dry coon trap is the old Monty 1.5 rj with ground 1/8th offsets. Or the MB450 offset long chained.

Carry on

I am glad you guys are enjoying this. I was feeling like I had started an on line arguement. Figured I just as well could have asked what the best rifle calibre for whitetail deer is. Yes I have an opinion on that. Lol.

For whatever it is worth, probably not much, I personally know three very good trappers here in Wisconsin. One uses a 1 3/4 or 2, 4 coiled, laminated, and offset as much as anything for PR. The other two use Bridger #3 and MB 650, 4 coiled, laminated, offset. Not so much for holding power as for "catch area"

Here in Wisconsin we have a 24 hour check law on non drowning sets.

I get the idea of a bigger catch area and I get the PR idea.

I think I will try to have fun figuring out what works for me.