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What causes excess foot damage on K9s #7454259
01/08/22 12:55 PM
01/08/22 12:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline OP
trapper
Yes sir  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
The big trap thread and several people's posts got me wondering. I've always thought it was just the effect of a foot sliding back and forth in the jaws. Obviously the sharper edge and narrower the jaw face the more effects that sliding has. Some have brought up things like strength of springs, offsets and weight of traps. Some have brought up shoulder damage. I've never been able to see shoulder damage on a coyote. I know when trapping wolves for relocation or collaring they use toothed jaws to eliminate the foot from sliding and causing damage. I know my offset jawed traps are never closed to the point it's metal on metal so it's still the foot that's holding the jaws open so I don't see how offsets put any less pressure on the foot..?? What's every one's thoughts? I'd assume the guys that have live marketed coyote would have the most knowledge on this subject. I know normally my cats caught in big traps have zero damage and they have thinner skin and usually smaller in size than most of my coyotes.

Last edited by Yes sir; 01/08/22 01:01 PM.
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454269
01/08/22 01:05 PM
01/08/22 01:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,052
Northern Mn
rick olson Offline
trapper
rick olson  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,052
Northern Mn
Sharp jaws,improper swiveling,weight of the trap,poor lock up = sliding off paw and pull outs sometimes no off set jaws but you can have damage with off set too for stated causes mentioned earlier to big of a trap for the animal etc.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454341
01/08/22 02:25 PM
01/08/22 02:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.

Last edited by Boone Liane; 01/08/22 02:25 PM.
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454356
01/08/22 02:47 PM
01/08/22 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 551
U.P. Michigan
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garart Offline
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garart  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 551
U.P. Michigan
I couldn't agree more with what B.L. posted above, his observations are spot on!

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: garart] #7454369
01/08/22 03:10 PM
01/08/22 03:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 72
Wisconsin
A
Ant Grit Offline
trapper
Ant Grit  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 72
Wisconsin
I agree with everything stated above. I also believe there is a certain size trap for each animal, and yes i believe some traps are just to big. I also think the more you can comfort an animal (wide face jaws, proper length of chain, shock springs, drags, and spring strength) the less they will fight a trap and less damage. A friend who trapped for the live market used 1 1/2s that were base plated, laminated, shocksprings, and #2 music wire springs. He told me that by only catching them by the toes they would heal up alot faster than if caught with a larger trap.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454376
01/08/22 03:24 PM
01/08/22 03:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,855
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,855
Central, SD
I run MJs with the wider cast O/S jaws 4 coiled, often I need to look closely or feel the pad to know what foot it was caught on if caught the night before. Held many reds and badgers with similar results not perfect but impressive.

Have held lunging yotes by only 2 pads before after snow cover the trap causing it to fire sooner then planned then catching the pads, I doubt that yote would of been there with a regular style trap.

Stamped jaws, weak traps, restricted swivels, lack of swivels, improper pan tension. Im a fan of lower, level pans but not huge pans or huge traps. Not that huge traps donít have a place on some lines just not mine.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454384
01/08/22 03:36 PM
01/08/22 03:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,320
SW Pa
B
Bob Jameson Offline
trapper
Bob Jameson  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,320
SW Pa
I trapped live market for many years. At that time my go to trap was the soft catch #3 victor coil spring trap for coyotes and # 1-1/2 coil soft catch when targeting fox exclusively. Some had beefer Taos add on springs that JC Conner makes. They added just enough extra fire power and no over pressure in my experience. Things worked out well with that set up. At that time they were the go too tool.

Wide surface jaw faces on traps provide a better hold and helps minimize slippage and does a center swivel point.The older model #3 soft catch traps had what I deemed weak springs and IMO too weak to accomadate adequate power up of the wider surface area that the padded jaw traps possessed.

You didn't want too much finish dirt cover on a finished set either.

One important thing I did find that the time the animals were in the traps were the key to minimizing foot trauma and temperature/weather conditions.

I would run most times very early in the morning. On occassion you will get an animal that is very aggressive at fighting ,lunging and exhibiting pogo like behavior after capture. These are the ones that are canidates for foot trauma. I didn't like long chains for that reason, too much room to move. 3 swivel points were best, no shock springs. I experienced very marginal observable foot trauma over the years. Most just had a creased indentation over the foot and pad area.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454444
01/08/22 05:00 PM
01/08/22 05:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 716
Custer Co, Idaho
S
sneaky Offline
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sneaky  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 716
Custer Co, Idaho
I think animals fight traps with shock springs harder than well swiveled solid chain setups. They can feel the give in the spring and take that as a weak point and keep trying to exploit it. Once they hit a solid stop on a non- spring setup they learn quick that isn't going to work. Your mileage may vary.


Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Boone Liane] #7454518
01/08/22 07:02 PM
01/08/22 07:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 284
Louisiana
T
Tofan Offline
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Tofan  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 284
Louisiana
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454537
01/08/22 07:16 PM
01/08/22 07:16 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,325
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
trapper
Wanna Be  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,325
SW Georgia
Iíll be the odd man out here, ALL my foot damage has come from offsetsÖK9ís only. Slowly building back to closed jaw traps. No damage with them.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Tofan] #7454620
01/08/22 08:24 PM
01/08/22 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline OP
trapper
Yes sir  Offline OP
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Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by Tofan
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.



So your saying the pressure causes the damage not the sliding back and forth, which would be greater in your scenario. None of my offset traps have enough offset to allow your scenario to happen. From the wolf biologist I read he said the sawing back and forth caused more damage than a trap with teeth. I've read the trapping in sand is harder on the foot. I'm guessing because the sand actually acts as an abrasive in the sliding back and forth in the jaws

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454709
01/08/22 09:54 PM
01/08/22 09:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Iím not gonna argue the offset thing. I know what I see in hundreds of catches a year using both.

They may fool John Q Public, and thatís fine.

I stand by what I said initially.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454713
01/08/22 09:58 PM
01/08/22 09:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,959
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,959
Amite county Mississippi
Where the live market guys when you need em ?


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
Tman Archivist
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Bob Jameson] #7454719
01/08/22 10:05 PM
01/08/22 10:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,915
SD
Originally Posted by Bob Jameson
I trapped live market for many years. At that time my go to trap was the soft catch #3 victor coil spring trap for coyotes and # 1-1/2 coil soft catch when targeting fox exclusively. Some had beefer Taos add on springs that JC Conner makes. They added just enough extra fire power and no over pressure in my experience. Things worked out well with that set up. At that time they were the go too tool.

Wide surface jaw faces on traps provide a better hold and helps minimize slippage and does a center swivel point.The older model #3 soft catch traps had what I deemed weak springs and IMO too weak to accomadate adequate power up of the wider surface area that the padded jaw traps possessed.

You didn't want too much finish dirt cover on a finished set either.

One important thing I did find that the time the animals were in the traps were the key to minimizing foot trauma and temperature conditions.

I would run most times very early in the morning. On occassion you will get an animal that is very aggressive at fighting ,lunging and exhibiting pogo like behavior after capture. These are the ones that are canidates for foot trauma. I didn't like long chains for that reason, too much room to move. 3 swivel points were best, no shock springs. I experienced very marginal observable foot trauma over the years. Most just had a creased indentation over the foot and pad area.


My old mans go to live trap in the fox days was a 1.5 woodstream soft catch.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454729
01/08/22 10:18 PM
01/08/22 10:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 36,122
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Offline
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Boco  Offline
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Posts: 36,122
james bay frontierOnt.
If staked solid-a short chain.Correct sized trap within reason for target animal lots of swivels,no entanglement, and reasonable check time-you will be good.

Last edited by Boco; 01/08/22 10:19 PM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7454983
01/09/22 09:18 AM
01/09/22 09:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 30
Southeast Louisiana
S
Slipknot Offline
trapper
Slipknot  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 30
Southeast Louisiana
Good Thread. I have been doing live market a short time. I like every one else can only speak from what I have seen. When I bring a coyote to my buyer we put them in a holding pen for a week if the foot is ok we are good to go. So far I have not had a bad one. I do trap year round and my go to trap is the 2 coil offset 550's I do add a JC Conner shock spring to them. I do think that this set up is to much for live market fox therefore I am trying to decide on a setup for them. I was leaning toward the 450 fox or the 1.5 victor soft catch. Like already mentioned jaw width, swivels ,animal and length of time in the trap all play a role in foot damage. Let me say this I have to come from where I am at to go to where you guys have been in trapping so I am always willing to listen and learn.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Wanna Be] #7454994
01/09/22 09:35 AM
01/09/22 09:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 124
Pennsylvania
P
patrapper1989 Offline
trapper
patrapper1989  Offline
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P

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 124
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Iíll be the odd man out here, ALL my foot damage has come from offsetsÖK9ís only. Slowly building back to closed jaw traps. No damage with them.


Agree with this 100%. I never saw a benefit of using offset traps. Sure the levers come up slightly higher but all the newer traps have high levers and good lockup. All the damage ive seen is always offset traps and i also am slowly going back to all regular jaw. Just my opinion based off my experiences.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455008
01/09/22 09:57 AM
01/09/22 09:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline OP
trapper
Yes sir  Offline OP
trapper
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,715
Marion Kansas
Don't have much issue with foot damage but ive often wondered if it was the sliding back and forth in the jaws that caused most of it, would having a spot in the center of the jaws just the width of the foot offset help? Obviously rounded corners in the transition from the closed to the offset.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455010
01/09/22 09:58 AM
01/09/22 09:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,622
SE SD
D
DWC Offline
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DWC  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,622
SE SD
Regarding foot or leg damage, i think the damage looks worse because we kill the critter. Its often temporary damage. My reasoning comes from catching a 20 lb dog this year in an offset unmodded #3 bridger dogless. The trap had her a ways above her paw and creased her leg pretty good and she couldnt step on it when i let her out. I kinda figured she had a broken leg the way it looked. Not knowing where she belonged, i put her in my back seat and she rode with while i checked traps. End of the day i found the lady who she belonged to, other side of the section. She ran around fine and you couldnt tell where she had been caught. The lady even scolded her and thanked me for trappin yotes!

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455018
01/09/22 10:04 AM
01/09/22 10:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,082
SW PA
W
white marlin Online content
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white marlin  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,082
SW PA
I don't have NEAR the catch numbers that many here have (I'm just a hobby guy); so take this for what you paid for it...

I really like the MB450's for fox in close quarters. used them for about 4-5 years in those areas and loved them. then, started noticing more damage. replaced the springs, and the damage stopped.

there's much more to the equation than my little anecdote implies; but that's my two cents.



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