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Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455179
01/09/22 01:18 PM
01/09/22 01:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,360
Central/Western Texas
AuthorTrapper Offline
trapper
AuthorTrapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,360
Central/Western Texas
Too few swivels, long chain, thin jaw face, close jaw rather than offset.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455181
01/09/22 01:20 PM
01/09/22 01:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,405
Frazee, MN
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backroadsarcher Offline
trapper
backroadsarcher  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,405
Frazee, MN
I have been using #3 Bridges 4 coiled regular jaw. I added outside lamination to the traps. I use these for coyote and don't really see damage to them. But if I catch a incidental fox and they are caught to high then you start running into a little more damage. The #3 is just to big of a trap for fox and is probably on the plus size for coyote in my opinion. But I feel are needed when we get a little snow on top of the trap.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455527
01/09/22 07:04 PM
01/09/22 07:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,750
Idaho, Lemhi County
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Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"
Gulo  Offline
"On The Other Hand"
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,750
Idaho, Lemhi County
I guess I'm in the live-capture camp. For the past ten years-plus, I've been trapping wolves for radiocollar attachment for research purposes. In my opinion, it is very important that the wolves not be compromised (injured) so that, when released, they continue to act like wolves, not like a cripple. I've experimented extensively with various traps and set-ups.

I will pretty much echo Boone's summary, but will add a few points I think are important. 1) rounding the jaw edges, especially the top, is very important in reducing injury, 2) thick laminations greatly reduce injury. 3) trap size (what I call "reach") is vital. That is, the distance from the pan (at firing) to the trap jaws. Too large a trap causes heavy injury when the trap becomes a "leg-hold" trap rather than a "foot-hold" trap. The wolf (or coyote) should be restrained in a foot-hold, and the jaws should be clamped across the foot pads, not the ankle. Too large of a trap often causes great injury and is not generally needed. Additionally, I am a fan of 4) multiple swivels and 5) shock springs; I believe both of these things reduce injury. One additional thing, in my opinion, probably has as much bearing on reducing injury to wolves or coyotes than all of the things mentioned above. That is 6)(which should probably be number 1) The use of drags rather than "hard-wiring", allows the trapped animal to depart the trap site and get to an area of brush or thick trees or heavy grass (some sort of cover). With both wolves and coyotes, I have no doubt that they are less "frantic", and fight the trap much less if they are hidden. In my opinion, this is probably the single greatest "reducer" of trap-induced injury. On multiple occasions, I've watched wolves apparently sleeping in the trap (until I make a noise).

Jack


Read a book...

Poetic Injustice:Ramblings from Alaska
The Last Hunt
Wild Life:The Evolution and Misadventures of a Naturalist
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455618
01/09/22 08:08 PM
01/09/22 08:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
GA
C
canebrake Offline
trapper
canebrake  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
GA
I think a wide, smooth jaw face helps tremendously.

I have much more experience with offsets than closed jaws, but I never had much damage with closed jaw #2 modified Bridgers.

I like my inside laminated 650s but they are rough on feet, even coyotes.

As said, proper swiveling is mighty important.

I don't like seeing foot damage.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Tofan] #7455652
01/09/22 08:30 PM
01/09/22 08:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 73
Rowan County, N.C.
S
scarfer Online content
trapper
scarfer  Online Content
trapper
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 73
Rowan County, N.C.
Originally Posted by Tofan
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Sharp jaw edge, narrow jaw face, and trap weight.

Rolled jaw edges and laminations contribute more to reducing foot damage than anything else.

I donít buy the offset theory at all when it comes to foot damage. Offsets allow more mechanical lockup advantage.



You are thinking about it backwards, and forgetting the entire point of offsets, but I don't blame you because the point is lost all over. In a perfect world, offset absolutely reduces foot damage because you are relying on the trap locking at the knuckle joints, beginning of paw pad and/or other joints of the foot. It's like when you cut a notch in a stick and tie a piece of string around it, you aren't really relying too heavily on the pressure of the knot being tight, more the smaller diameter notch which prevents the string from slipping off since the rest of the stick is of a larger diameter. In theory if you had offset jaws that were wide enough to close right before the metatarsal and/or metacarpal pad, the trap would exert little pressure on the actual foot. That canine could pull all they want, but unless they chew off those massive meta pads, they aren't going to get out.

The main problem with above is that no catch is perfect, so that only works if you get a perfect catch with the trap, which never happens.



I see you joined last month and stated you were a new trapper

What experience do you have to.make the above post

These folks have caught thousands of critters

Sometimes its smart to listen

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455730
01/09/22 09:23 PM
01/09/22 09:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
GA
C
canebrake Offline
trapper
canebrake  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 358
GA
He said on 12/29 that he was a beginner. He must have learned an awful lot in two weeks! laugh

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455751
01/09/22 09:42 PM
01/09/22 09:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 102
Ohio
M
MattDoyle Offline
trapper
MattDoyle  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 102
Ohio
Iím gonna throw something out that hasnít been mentioned yet. Donít misunderstand me, Iím not discounting any of the other reasons people have mentioned, but one that hasnít been mentioned is weather. All other things being equal, I see more foot damage in the sloppy muddy weather than I do when itís dry. That leads me to believe the foot is sliding more in the trap and causing the damage. If they were on a drag, they probably would have picked a drier place to lay up lol.
Matt

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455779
01/09/22 10:11 PM
01/09/22 10:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,984
Northern Illinois
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MChewk Offline
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MChewk  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,984
Northern Illinois
No one has mentioned a centered chain and swivel attachment yet....maybe it was taken for granted.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455782
01/09/22 10:16 PM
01/09/22 10:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,949
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,949
Amite county Mississippi
Anyone el sw been reading through Steel traps most recent thread and seeing what he's doing with long chains ? His thoughts on the subject are very interesting


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
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MS National Guardsmen
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Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Wolfdog91] #7455816
01/09/22 10:38 PM
01/09/22 10:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,015
alabama
steeltraps Offline
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steeltraps  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,015
alabama
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Anyone el sw been reading through Steel traps most recent thread and seeing what he's doing with long chains ? His thoughts on the subject are very interesting

Wolfdog91 I am experimenting with Long chains and Sterling Nail Swivels. I think the = nail swivel is the best. Drags and 10 ft of chain has showed me the least damage on long check times. But sometimes drags want work. Sometimes I think its just the aniamal in the trap. Some coyotes just fight the trap harder than others

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: MChewk] #7455945
01/10/22 12:56 AM
01/10/22 12:56 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,914
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,914
SD
Originally Posted by MChewk
No one has mentioned a centered chain and swivel attachment yet....maybe it was taken for granted.


I run quite a few side swiveled traps too and as far as them reducing foot damage, I just donít see it.

The foot slides once to the opposite side from the swivel, and stays there.

Now the rare (and I stress RARE) time the animal wraps up the chain around the trap and leg, youíll have some damage. Itís rare, and Iíve had them do this with center swiveled rigs too but the odds are higher with a side hook up. In fact, I just had my first cable anchor ďfailureĒ with a coyote a couple weeks ago. Judging by the twisted balled up end of the cable (1/8Ē even), Iím guessing he wrapped the chain around the trap/leg thus disabling the swivels and continued to spin until he broke the cable. That was a center swiveled rig.

Many many thousands of critters trapped with cable anchors though without a ďfailureĒ. Just goes to show nothing is 100%.


[Linked Image]

Last edited by Boone Liane; 01/10/22 12:57 AM.
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7455998
01/10/22 07:00 AM
01/10/22 07:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,372
Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,372
Southern Michigan
When we first tested /designed the proto-Alpha #3s a few things became obvious. Wide cast jaws with a flat contact surface made a huge difference, rounding the jaw edges made it even better. Inside and out. Offsets offer a big mechanical advantage but 1/4 is too wide. 3/16th for yotes is perfect. They fight a lighter trap less no matter the chain length, in fact longer (18 inches) they seem to fight less. At this point in time I've trapped over 50 yotes in the Alphas and it seems to be obvious. But some coyotes just don' behave, right? Boone's spot on, " nothing is 100 percent" Dang coyotes anyway LOL. Swivels are VERY important... Sand is worse than mud..

Last edited by trappergbus; 01/10/22 07:03 AM.

Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7456086
01/10/22 09:10 AM
01/10/22 09:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,914
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,914
SD
We also have to remember, ďexcessiveĒ foot damage, much like high and low coyote population densities, is subjective.

To an anti trapper, ANY mark, divot or dent on the foot would be considered excessive.

A live market trapper has a set of parameters for allowable foot damage that are likely different from a fur trapper whoís going to kill the animal.

A sheep rancher trying to kill the coyote thatís chewing up his $250 lambs probably has no parameters.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7456155
01/10/22 10:39 AM
01/10/22 10:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,391
NNY
0
080808 Offline
trapper
080808  Offline
trapper
0

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,391
NNY
Boone Liane. Well said especially regarding the lambs.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7456715
01/10/22 08:58 PM
01/10/22 08:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,583
Wheaton Ks
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lee steinmeyer Offline
trapper
lee steinmeyer  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,583
Wheaton Ks
Yep, Boone is spot on. Also glad to see Gary, trappergbus, make the statement about too much gap in an offset. I donít understand trappers that dis offset jaws, but donít believe they understand the dynamics of how a trap works and locks. A correct offset will not cause anymore loss than a standard trap, if either lock up, which is the absolute necessity in trapping. Not gonna say anymore, as everyone has their opinionsÖ.thatís what makes the world go round!


YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY.

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Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7456808
01/10/22 10:07 PM
01/10/22 10:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
Excessive is the key word here excessive and normal are worlds apart that might be whatís confusing people. Itís not Disney VS Friday the 13 LOL


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7457037
01/11/22 06:44 AM
01/11/22 06:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,372
Southern Michigan
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trappergbus Offline
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trappergbus  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,372
Southern Michigan
The true cause of paw damage is the paw movement. There has to be a balance of power enough to prevent movement and power enough to hold with a wide jaw surface to spread the pressure exerted by the springs. It's not the same with ALL coyotes. Here I have 20-pound YOYs up to 50-pound adults so its tough to find that balance and extended checks make it even more difficult. I had the consent from the local CO to leave an adult male in the trap for 3 days. The hold was just above the pad on the right front paw. That Alpha was 4 coiled with the same helpers as the 550 4 coil stock. Paw never moved, there was some slight swelling but no paw movement. It was funny after the second day the yote saw the truck and just laid there with a bored look.. When I skinned the yote there was no shoulder damage either, the trap had 18 inches of chain and swivels to the anchor point. If the trap your using with offsets is causing damage it's not the offset that is causing the issue. It's either the lack of lock up or the offset is over 3/16th. Offsets of 3/16th with a good lock up with good swivels have saved me a bunch of coyotes, especially toe caught!! Especially in deep snow and mud situations.


Common sense catches alot of fur..
Pay homage to all you harvest..
Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7457170
01/11/22 10:03 AM
01/11/22 10:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,201
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
trapper
rpmartin  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,201
S/W Wisconsin
Absolutely spot on trappergbus with all of the above!
I have found that 3/16 gap on offsets for coyotes is as good as it gets.
I have also learned you can explain this stuff all day long to trappers but only a few of the sharper ones will understand it.


Life member,
NRA, NTA, RMEF, Pheasants Forever.
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Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Yes sir] #7457441
01/11/22 02:28 PM
01/11/22 02:28 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,317
SW Georgia
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Wanna Be Offline
trapper
Wanna Be  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,317
SW Georgia
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

Re: What causes excess foot damage on K9s [Re: Wanna Be] #7457503
01/11/22 03:28 PM
01/11/22 03:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 709
Custer Co, Idaho
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sneaky Offline
trapper
sneaky  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 709
Custer Co, Idaho
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Guess I ainít too sharp then. Running MB550ís and when I have damage itís in offsets. Regular jaws (same trap) I donít. Iím nowhere experienced as yíall are and can only tell you what ďIĒ experience. Maybe my offsets are too wide, but they are stock traps on a 24hr check.

What length chain? Shock spring? Swivels? What's your setup?


Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand
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