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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7503980
02/21/22 02:39 PM
02/21/22 02:39 PM
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bearcat2 Offline
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One disadvantage of regular jaws on land is that they restrict blood flow more than offsets, although not nearly as bad as rubber jaws. Not that big a deal in warm weather, although you will get more swelling of the feet, especially in areas with longer check times. But in cold weather this will cause the foot to freeze due to limited blood flow. This is a very bad thing on a nontarget you are wishing to release.

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7503993
02/21/22 02:49 PM
02/21/22 02:49 PM
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Eastern W by God V
Crowfoot Offline OP
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24 hr checks here, and I set relatively few which are checked early, usually right at to shortly after daylight.
Good points, thanks

Last edited by Crowfoot; 02/21/22 03:23 PM.
Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: bearcat2] #7504036
02/21/22 03:30 PM
02/21/22 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
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Iowa
~ADC~ Offline
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Originally Posted by bearcat2
One disadvantage of regular jaws on land is that they restrict blood flow more than offsets, although not nearly as bad as rubber jaws. Not that big a deal in warm weather, although you will get more swelling of the feet, especially in areas with longer check times. But in cold weather this will cause the foot to freeze due to limited blood flow. This is a very bad thing on a nontarget you are wishing to release.


I have to respectfully disagree with this. The offset jaws are squeezing just as tight on the foot as regular jaws. The offsets are not wide enough that they stop closing on the foot. If they were they would allow for almost all toe catches to escape. They may be better on a non-target bird with a skinny leg, but on k9's I have never seen a difference. However, there are times where forming the offset produces a wider jaw face or more rounded jaw faces which are easier on feet.... but also make pulling out of the trap easier along with center swiveling,,,, that's a disagreement for another time.

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7504220
02/21/22 06:51 PM
02/21/22 06:51 PM
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Eastern W by God V
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Brings up another question:
For example, a good coyote pad catch in a #3 CS OS.
Is the trap closed to the stops on the jaws all of the time ? Or closed on the foot with more travel available ?

I've caught fox on the pad with 1-1/2 regular jaws and the jaws weren't closed to the point OS's would have made a difference.

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7504237
02/21/22 07:10 PM
02/21/22 07:10 PM
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I can tell you on my MB550’s regular jaw and offsets, that they close up so tight I have to use my feet to open them.

Last edited by Wanna Be; 02/21/22 07:11 PM.
Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Wanna Be] #7504240
02/21/22 07:12 PM
02/21/22 07:12 PM
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Oklahoma
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Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Think it’s just a law based on feelings rather than facts.

My sentiments as well. I'd like to see the studies this requirement is based on.


“I don't know, Chief, if he's very smart or very dumb.”
Capt. Quint
Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7505309
02/22/22 07:49 PM
02/22/22 07:49 PM
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Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by Crowfoot
Brings up another question:
For example, a good coyote pad catch in a #3 CS OS.
Is the trap closed to the stops on the jaws all of the time ? Or closed on the foot with more travel available ?

I've caught fox on the pad with 1-1/2 regular jaws and the jaws weren't closed to the point OS's would have made a difference.


All traps which catch critters close on the foot, toe, leg, etc. If the trap closes to the stops the animal ain't caught and can pull out or worse, the animal has suffered damage. Typically the higher the levers the better the trap lockup (geometry, not force). The 'near' same amount of trap force is exerted on the foot of an animal by sister traps, reg vs os. Jaw width and geometry is a discussion for another day, as is the number of swivels and chain lengths.


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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: bearcat2] #7505435
02/22/22 09:32 PM
02/22/22 09:32 PM
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Posts: 14,307
Montana
USMC47 🦫 Offline
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Originally Posted by bearcat2
One disadvantage of regular jaws on land is that they restrict blood flow more than offsets, although not nearly as bad as rubber jaws. Not that big a deal in warm weather, although you will get more swelling of the feet, especially in areas with longer check times. But in cold weather this will cause the foot to freeze due to limited blood flow. This is a very bad thing on a nontarget you are wishing to release.
Absolutely false. That offset jaw allows the jaws to close MORE, in turn, the jaws locking up TIGHTER.


The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.

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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: USMC47 🦫] #7505479
02/22/22 10:10 PM
02/22/22 10:10 PM
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montana
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red mt Offline
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Originally Posted by USMC47 🦫
Originally Posted by bearcat2
One disadvantage of regular jaws on land is that they restrict blood flow more than offsets, although not nearly as bad as rubber jaws. Not that big a deal in warm weather, although you will get more swelling of the feet, especially in areas with longer check times. But in cold weather this will cause the foot to freeze due to limited blood flow. This is a very bad thing on a nontarget you are wishing to release.
Absolutely false. That offset jaw allows the jaws to close MORE, in turn, the jaws locking up TIGHTER.


USMC47is exactly right offsets have mechanical advantage and able clear ground material no more than that neither has advantage or disadvantage in blood flow imo, back in the day offset were made and used to help caught raptor . Offsets advantage comes in where the levers come up high and lock up better.


Kenneth schoening
Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7506085
02/23/22 12:05 PM
02/23/22 12:05 PM
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Pennsylvania
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It is my opinion to never use OS for beaver, otter, muskrat, or mink

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: bearcat2] #7506086
02/23/22 12:08 PM
02/23/22 12:08 PM
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patrapperbuster Offline
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For drowning sets bloodflow is not a consideration

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: red mt] #7507940
02/24/22 08:21 PM
02/24/22 08:21 PM
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bearcat2 Offline
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Absolutely false. That offset jaw allows the jaws to close MORE, in turn, the jaws locking up TIGHTER.
[/quote]

USMC47is exactly right offsets have mechanical advantage and able clear ground material no more than that neither has advantage or disadvantage in blood flow imo, back in the day offset were made and used to help caught raptor . Offsets advantage comes in where the levers come up high and lock up better. [/quote]

Yes offsets can have a mechanical advantage. But you will never convince me that offsets close TIGHTER than close jawed traps. An offset CAN'T close tighter than whatever the offset is. If it is 3/16" offset, the jaws will never get closer than 3/16" from each other. Now either an offset or a close jawed trap very well may be more than 3/16" open due to the animals foot holding it open, but a close jawed trap will close as tight as the foot lets it, which may be less than 3/16" depending on the animal, which would make it TIGHTER than the offset. Frankly, most of the time it is a nonissue because either type will be held from closing completely by the animals foot. The real culprit for restricting bloodflow is rubber jawed traps, which act very like a tourniquet, forming around the animals foot and restricting bloodflow much more than either offset or regular.

And since the OP was asking about using offsets on beaver, I'm assuming a drowning rig, and nobody worries about blood flow on a drowning setup.

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7508050
02/24/22 09:35 PM
02/24/22 09:35 PM
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Montana
USMC47 🦫 Offline
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Bearcat, I’ll try to explain this the best way I can.

Jaws never close all the way when a foot is in a trap, right? We can all agree on that.

Because of the offset, the jaws DO close more. The outside of the jaws are closer to the closed position than regular jaws would be. This is simply because of the offset.

Because the jaws are closed more, the levers - or spring levers, or long springs - are locked up tighter. This results in a tighter lock.

Take two identical traps - one regular and one offset. Fire it on your hand. You’ll agree with me IMMEDIATELY. The evidence of this is also obvious on live market trapped canines.


The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.

www.derricks-nm.com
Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: USMC47 🦫] #7508061
02/24/22 09:45 PM
02/24/22 09:45 PM
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Average Joe Offline
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Originally Posted by USMC47 🦫
Bearcat, I’ll try to explain this the best way I can.

Jaws never close all the way when a foot is in a trap, right? We can all agree on that.

Because of the offset, the jaws DO close more. The outside of the jaws are closer to the closed position than regular jaws would be. This is simply because of the offset.

Because the jaws are closed more, the levers - or spring levers, or long springs - are locked up tighter. This results in a tighter lock.

Take two identical traps - one regular and one offset. Fire it on your hand. You’ll agree with me IMMEDIATELY. The evidence of this is also obvious on live market trapped canines.



Correct. It’s a leverage thing - the further away from the jaw hinge (fulcrum) the springs can get while putting force on the jaw, the greater the leverage, meaning more force. Think about it from the opposite extreme of the spring force being right near the hinge when the jaws are nearly full open, at that point it is very easy to hold the jaws open because the springs have very little leverage and therefore not much force.

Last edited by Average Joe; 02/24/22 10:16 PM.

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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7508065
02/24/22 09:49 PM
02/24/22 09:49 PM
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Think of it this way, it’s the position of the levers that makes it tighter. You can hold a trap open all the way and even pet way up, but once those jaws get to a certain height, you’re not stopping them. Kind of like the compound bow effect.


The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle.

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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7508102
02/24/22 10:11 PM
02/24/22 10:11 PM
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williams,mn
trapper les Offline
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Originally Posted by Crowfoot
Do beaver typically pull out of OS jaws ? (Duke #4 or MB-750)

I see the OS listed for cats n dogs, and the Standard listed for the same + beaver.

Never used the OS for beaver .. just wondering.

I am not a fan of offsets for beaver, I want a nice squared up jaw edge, not rolled, standard jaws...for beaver. I've lost enough of them the way it is, and I think I'v figured that one out too.


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Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: USMC47 🦫] #7508236
02/24/22 11:47 PM
02/24/22 11:47 PM
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bearcat2 Offline
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Originally Posted by USMC47 🦫
Bearcat, I’ll try to explain this the best way I can.

Jaws never close all the way when a foot is in a trap, right? We can all agree on that.

Because of the offset, the jaws DO close more. The outside of the jaws are closer to the closed position than regular jaws would be. This is simply because of the offset.

Because the jaws are closed more, the levers - or spring levers, or long springs - are locked up tighter. This results in a tighter lock.

Take two identical traps - one regular and one offset. Fire it on your hand. You’ll agree with me IMMEDIATELY. The evidence of this is also obvious on live market trapped canines.


OK, I think we are using the same terms differently. I agree with everything you said here. I was using "tighter" to mean the distance between the jaw faces, which most of the time is the thickness of the foot in the trap. Whereas you are saying the offsets close tighter because the distance between the outside of the jaws is less on an offset. Which is the mechanical advantage of offsets.
I've never noticed much damage to coyote feet from my offset coyote traps, but I'll admit to never using regular jawed traps intentionally on coyotes. I have seen animals feet frozen in closed jawed traps, something I haven't seen in offset traps, but perhaps that is anecdotal evidence that is not due to trap design. I have caught a few coyotes in wolf traps with 3/8" offsets and those had some ugly damage to their feet due to the offset being too big and allowing their foot to slide.

On a total side note, I was told by multiple fish and game employees as a kid that the reason for offsets was to prevent broken legs or if the bone was broken the offset did not continue to squeeze tighter and allow the animal to cut the tendons as it fought and get away leaving a foot. I'm pretty sure everybody here will agree with me in saying this is obviously a reason thought up by someone who never trapped. I've personally never seen a canine have a broken bone from a trap.

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7508306
02/25/22 01:18 AM
02/25/22 01:18 AM
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Eastern W by God V
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Good stuff !
I think that about answers my questions, thanks folks !
One more tho:
What is the actual history behind the OS and the DJ traps ?
Who came up with them and why ?
Thanks again,
smile

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: trapper les] #7510080
02/26/22 12:42 PM
02/26/22 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by trapper les
Originally Posted by Crowfoot
Do beaver typically pull out of OS jaws ? (Duke #4 or MB-750)

I see the OS listed for cats n dogs, and the Standard listed for the same + beaver.

Never used the OS for beaver .. just wondering.

I am not a fan of offsets for beaver, I want a nice squared up jaw edge, not rolled, standard jaws...for beaver. I've lost enough of them the way it is, and I think I'v figured that one out too.



On all my new beaver traps i actually file the inside of the jaw face so they are flat & square

Re: OS vs Std. Jaws for beaver [Re: Crowfoot] #7510181
02/26/22 02:52 PM
02/26/22 02:52 PM
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Except for Oregon, where teeth are illegal, all my beaver traps are not only regular jawed, but have teeth welded on them. Probably not necessary, but it is what I grew up using, and I've never had an issue will pullouts on beaver or otter, so I'm not planning on changing.

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