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Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Yes sir] #7641256
08/03/22 11:11 AM
08/03/22 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
If u have never tried it how do u know which way is most effective?


I've tried It both ways and I've settled on placing urine away from any bait hole set. And If your on location and have a good lure why do you even need urine.


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Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: The Beav] #7641283
08/03/22 12:00 PM
08/03/22 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by The Beav
Originally Posted by Yes sir
If u have never tried it how do u know which way is most effective?


I've tried It both ways and I've settled on placing urine away from any bait hole set. And If your on location and have a good lure why do you even need urine.

My opinion based of watching coyotes reaction to a dirt hole with urine and another attractant like a bait or lure is it increases your odds of a catch. Same reason some use more than one attractant at a set or multiple sets at one location. It's all about increasing your catch rate. And like Lt pointed out it attractant other animals and is a great way to get your bait stolen.
Doesn't Robert squiet it on the backing or in the hole on every set?

Last edited by Yes sir; 08/03/22 12:39 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641298
08/03/22 12:45 PM
08/03/22 12:45 PM
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I believe that by placing the urine somewhat close to the set makes the fox or coyote more at ease. The other thing I do Is I place my lure at a baited hole set about 3" or 4 " to the right or left of the baited hole. It seems to me i get more foot movement that way. Any way that's how James Lucero does It.


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Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: The Beav] #7641303
08/03/22 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by The Beav
I believe that by placing the urine somewhat close to the set makes the fox or coyote more at ease. The other thing I do Is I place my lure at a baited hole set about 3" or 4 " to the right or left of the baited hole. It seems to me i get more foot movement that way. Any way that's how James Lucero does It.


Glad you posted that. Thatís what Iíve been doing this year as well. I tend to put my urine out in front mainly to draw attention to the set. Iím relying on the bait and/or lure to get them caught.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641324
08/03/22 01:22 PM
08/03/22 01:22 PM
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I didn't read all the responses, but I did read a few.

I'll try to respond to some of it.

First of all, I am not a fur trapper.

I am the 'gun for hire', so to speak. I trap animals because people pay me to.
It has been my full time job, most of my adult life.
In this business, you catch certain animals, or you don't get paid.
Simple as that. . .but I digress.

The number one scent sold today, volume wise, is in fact urine.
128 ounces to a gallon.

Trappers use it, because it works.

Canine urine will attract rabbits and deer and cattle. . .and of course, canines.
Aged, bottled urine will cause some canines to shy away, but not many.
Most canines will walk up and sniff urine, regardless of the type. Even human urine. It doesn't scare animals like we've been told.

Trappers buy urine and use it far more than is needed.
A coyote or any other canine doesn't use as much, when they are 'marking' an area, as I have seen most trappers use.

A canine's nose is rich with olfactory senses. They read their world using their sense of smell.

When (many) trappers make a dirt hole set, they add bait to the hole, some type of lure of the edge or lip of the hole, urine of the specie they're after (or similar)
and some will even add a dropping or two.

Q ) Which could you remove from that equation and still have the set produce the animal that approaches ?
A) All of them, save one and that's any one of them. The ( fresh ) set alone will catch some animals

You don't need multiple scents to catch an animal at a set.
But lure makers tell us you do . . . to get the animal to stutter-step, increasing your odds to step on the trap.
And when you, the trapper, use multiple scents at a set and catch the target animal. . .you swear it works, because , well, it did.
But you could have caught the animal by just using one.

Personally, I would take that same lure, bait , urine and droppings and make four separate sets, all close by, increasing my chances of multiple catches.
Q) What's the best animal attractant ?
A) An animal of the same specie


If you need more than one scent at a set. . .you're using the wrong scent !

Q)How many scents does a 'control trapper' use ON an M-44 or Getter Gun ?
A) ( I hope you said ONE ! )


Know why that is ? IT"S THE RIGHT (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) SCENT !

( Think about it )

Now, as one trapper pointed out, Charlie Dobbins wrote his observations on using urine at a dirt hole set,
which was that a canine doesn't scent mark a baited set, unless the bait is no longer present.

So, a morsel in the hole, no urine.
If the hole is empty, it marks it with urine.

Which is why urine does not belong on a Cache Set.

Could it work ?
Sure.
But it isn't natural , nor is it needed.
The same results will occur without urine.

Animal urine, attracts animals and a properly placed trap will catch most as they approach.

1) Fox, cats, coyotes and yes, even wolves seldom, if ever scent mark over aged bottled urine, as we've been led to believe by writers of the past.
It's B S !
Oh, they'll walk straight up to it and smell it. They'll do the same where you pee , but they won't scent mark aged urine.
It does NOT have that effect, which is why it doesn't warrant that response.

Now let your trap line dog scent mark a bush and a coyote will lose it's mind !
Do you know why that is ?
Do you know what the difference is ?

Most trappers don't.

And that is why the majority of fur trappers, remain fur trappers, where the name of the game is 'numbers of animals caught'.


The percentage of animals caught in the fall and early winter are the young of that year.
And with mammals, that's usually 2 to 8 per litter, on average

In regards to coyotes : There is a world of difference between a fall pup and a hard nosed predator that has seen the best trappers, hunters and snare men have to offer.

And when you are paid to kill that coyote (or coyotes) after everyone else has failed, you had better do it right the first time !


(NUISANCE) companies in my area are charging as high as $2,000.00 for a single coyote. . .
A single coyote !


And frankly, most of them couldn't catch a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) coyote if you threw it in their lap !

You won't 'fur trap' many coyotes in July and August.
Ask a man that does it for a living.

And that, my friends, is why you don't use cookie cutter fur trapping methods on a wise old dog that's ,(not only been around, but OWNS ) the block !

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641328
08/03/22 01:29 PM
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That response ^^^ might save me some money.

Iím guilty of throwing the whole gauntlet at a set and thinking it worked when I catch something.
Based on your experience and writings, it very well could have been just one of the things I used. Now my brain is spinning wondering if all that is too much at once and that why a lot of sets catch on day 2 or 3 after all that scent has dissipated some.
Iím still learningÖ

Last edited by Wanna Be; 08/03/22 01:32 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641339
08/03/22 01:48 PM
08/03/22 01:48 PM
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Wanna Be,
Use two to three different odors at a set, and when you catch the 'target animal', which one caught the animal ?
All of them ?
Why, that's not what the ad said when they sold you the lure ?
That lure, that single lure was a deadly fur taker. . .


Now, why did you use three ? laugh

If the set is wrecked, do you rebuild it and add more. ( even just urine ) Many trappers do. . .

Bait and lure won't make you a better trapper
Becoming a better trapper will make you a better trapper.
( if that seems confusing, as a blind setter for mink what it means)

Quote: "You can skin an animal only once, but you can skin a trapper, year after year "
Harry Smeal


Oh, to be a lure marker again with a high dollar market . . ,. whistle

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641366
08/03/22 02:24 PM
08/03/22 02:24 PM
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Lt I would agree with most of all you posted above. And yes the approach of a fur trapper and a control guy can be much different especially during warm seasons. Fur trapping I'm not completely sold that one attractant is ALWAYS best. Considering lures and prepared baits usually have at least 4 ingredients at the bottom end to 12+ ingredients on the top end, I don't see the idea of one lure with say 12 ingredients in it always being more effective than say a lure with 5 ingredients and a bait with four. And I'll say I have seen negative effects especially on the tougher to catch coyotes of having 3 or 4 different sets in one area. That much stimulus in one area just isn't natural. Lol grin

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: The Beav] #7641368
08/03/22 02:25 PM
08/03/22 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by The Beav
I believe that by placing the urine somewhat close to the set makes the fox or coyote more at ease. The other thing I do Is I place my lure at a baited hole set about 3" or 4 " to the right or left of the baited hole. It seems to me i get more foot movement that way. Any way that's how James Lucero does It.

What's Robert do

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641374
08/03/22 02:30 PM
08/03/22 02:30 PM
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Hereís my issue.I donít trap places with high or even medium numbers of coyotes. Coyote tracks are are minimum where tracks can be seen. Even not many on cameras. I made a set with a camera July 23. The only time my camera went off besides me riding by checking sets was when a coyote finally came through and got caught on July 29th.
So I guess my confidence level with just bait or lure or even urine isnít enough to just trust one at a set, when critters only come through every so often, hence the reason I throw everything I have at them.

But, Iím going to follow the advice on here and try just one at a time and see what happens.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641451
08/03/22 03:52 PM
08/03/22 03:52 PM
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Y'all use lure? Why?


Gotta live up to the nickname...
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Yes sir] #7641471
08/03/22 04:16 PM
08/03/22 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
Lt I would agree with most of all you posted above.
And I'll say I have seen negative effects especially on the tougher to catch coyotes of having 3 or 4 different sets in one area.
That much stimulus in one area just isn't natural. Lol grin



And that's why you see videos posted on places like You Tube where trappers have 4,5,6,7 or more coyotes caught within a 100 yards, or so, area.

Ever see the Bob W e n d t one with 10 or 12 ?
How about Robert Waddell's 7 in a row, one night.

Keep believing that Santa is real

I know better and I still get a gift
wink

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641476
08/03/22 04:18 PM
08/03/22 04:18 PM
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Glad you dumped the cart, LT.

I'd love to chime in with all my hard won knowledge of urine but to tell the truth I haven't used it in years.

Honestly, I've been pondering urine lately and considering the various offerings including some of the secret sauce word of mouth sources. But when looking back on the time I did use urine nothing about urine ever stood out or seemed to be the difference. So I just wondered if I was somehow missing something.

At the moment my ranking of items that'll put paw on pan.

Location
Bait
Set construction
Lure

I say at the moment because I'm always open to change based on knowledge gained.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Wanna Be] #7641477
08/03/22 04:19 PM
08/03/22 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Hereís my issue.I donít trap places with high or even medium numbers of coyotes.
So I guess my confidence level with just bait or lure or even urine isnít enough to just trust one at a set, when critters only come through every so often, hence the reason I throw everything I have at them.
.



When I hear people say that. . .a thought runs through my mind.

( I wanna trap where they trap )



The true secret to success on the trap line is : Location and how natural the set looks

Stop believing all that other BS

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641491
08/03/22 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LT GREY
Originally Posted by Wanna Be
Hereís my issue.I donít trap places with high or even medium numbers of coyotes.
So I guess my confidence level with just bait or lure or even urine isnít enough to just trust one at a set, when critters only come through every so often, hence the reason I throw everything I have at them.
.



When I hear people say that. . .a thought runs through my mind.

( I wanna trap where they trap )



The true secret to success on the trap line is : Location and how natural the set looks

Stop believing all that other BS


If you are ever down this way and got a day or two to spare Iíd be MORE than happy to let you set, lol! Wouldnít hurt my feelings if you had a full line the next morning. Iím open to learning.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641492
08/03/22 04:34 PM
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Along those same lines, I read about folks catching 10+ coyotes a day and I think, Iíd love to trap where they trap.

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641502
08/03/22 04:49 PM
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Different times of year animals respond to different stimulus.
As a fur trapper I target predatory animals in winter when fur is prime. Winter is when they are hungry here.Baiting shines when the country is lean.
If I have to kill a predator when the living is easy,I will go first with blind sets or second with a set that stimulates their territorial behaviour.
Bait is mostly of no use in warmer weather,unless setting up a wolf kill or similar-even then the window is small.

Last edited by Boco; 08/03/22 04:52 PM.

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Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: LT GREY] #7641519
08/03/22 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LT GREY
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Lt I would agree with most of all you posted above.
And I'll say I have seen negative effects especially on the tougher to catch coyotes of having 3 or 4 different sets in one area.
That much stimulus in one area just isn't natural. Lol grin



And that's why you see videos posted on places like You Tube where trappers have 4,5,6,7 or more coyotes caught within a 100 yards, or so, area.

Ever see the Bob W e n d t one with 10 or 12 ?
How about Robert Waddell's 7 in a row, one night.

Keep believing that Santa is real

I know better and I still get a gift
wink

Lt are u saying those pics are not real? Not tracking with Santa comment
My point in the post of too many sets spooking coyotes is in reference to the smarter/hard ti catch , more like control trapping. Those pics are fur trapping/ take out the easy ones...
Stay hooked here with me
As far as seeing those pics, I've got a friend that had 12 in one pic a couple years ago. He's on this forum but to my knowledge has never post on the subject of coyote trapping. And he does use pee at every dirt hole along with Bob W and Waddell. grin

Last edited by Yes sir; 08/03/22 05:48 PM.
Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Boco] #7641521
08/03/22 05:29 PM
08/03/22 05:29 PM
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LT, What kind of Lure's do You use?

Re: Upsetting the 'Apple' cart. . . [Re: Mark McCary] #7641559
08/03/22 06:42 PM
08/03/22 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark McCary
LT, What kind of Lure's do You use?



I've made lure and baits since the late 70's.
Most people that know me, know that,
I've had several lure lines over the years, but currently, just make it for myself and a few friends.
Most major lure and bait companies' products will attract the animals they were intended to.

Jameson's coyote gland lure is top-notch, IMO,, as are many of his other scents.
Johnny G over in Wyoming, and Craig's lures in Montana, all first-rate.
When Andy Weiser made lures, I used them fairly often.

A lot of good products out there.
I have named but a few.

I use a lot of whole natural baits, which coyotes and foxes really eat.

In the heat, you don't use a lot of baits though.
The odor attracts flies and your baits will be a ball of maggots in a day or so.

A coyote will stroll right past it.

Dropping usage is high during the warmer months, as coyotes in particular are marking the roads they travel on.
* See: 'What droppings teach us' possibly in the Trapperman.com archives.


They do dry out rather quickly in the heat and that's where glycerine comes into play.
But that's another subject in itself

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