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Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: Average Joe] #7704471
10/30/22 09:28 AM
10/30/22 09:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,767
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,767
Georgia
Originally Posted by Average Joe
The Meateater podcast covered this topic not long ago. It’s worth a listen whether you want to believe it or not. I believe there is truth to it, but it is insignificant on large scale populations.
Lead poisoning is real, eagles eat gut piles which often contain lead fragments, therefore lead poisoning in eagles is likely real.
A good point was made on the podcast - there are far more people who like eagles than there are people who hunt - so ignoring the issue puts hunters in a bad light and we risk losing support from some non-hunters.


Agreed

We as outdoorsfolk need to be part of the discussion and accommodating where possible but always on guard that issues like this aren't used as a Trojan horse for broad over reach.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: warrior] #7704504
10/30/22 10:12 AM
10/30/22 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 109
Wisconsin
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Average Joe Offline
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Average Joe  Offline
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Wisconsin
I was shocked to learn that less than 5% of the population hunts.
Let that sink in.


Official owner of the “Most Foolish Post Ever”
-Awarded by 52Carl
Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: Average Joe] #7704567
10/30/22 11:39 AM
10/30/22 11:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16,717
pa
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hippie Offline
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Originally Posted by Average Joe
I was shocked to learn that less than 5% of the population hunts.
Let that sink in.


Yet we're the cause of the lead poisoning? Let that sink in.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704568
10/30/22 11:41 AM
10/30/22 11:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,748
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
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The Hill Country of Texas
This could go bad guys, remember how the facts didn't matter on the pandemic we don't talk about!


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: hippie] #7704574
10/30/22 11:56 AM
10/30/22 11:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,070
Barnum, MN
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ScottW Offline
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ScottW  Offline
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Barnum, MN
Originally Posted by hippie
Originally Posted by Average Joe
I was shocked to learn that less than 5% of the population hunts.
Let that sink in.


Yet we're the cause of the lead poisoning? Let that sink in.


Let us just say that in fact lead fragments from hunters bullets in gut piles and such that are causing let’s just say 90+ percent of the eagle deaths/sicknesses would you still try deny “we” are essentially the ones causing the death and/or sicknesses? Or are “we” at complete lack of fault and it falls solely on the shoulders of those who have had little effect on the situation? Happy trapping! ScottW

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704575
10/30/22 12:01 PM
10/30/22 12:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 14,787
Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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Green County Wisconsin
I am not saying lead poisoning of birds isn't real , clearly birds get into lead

I would argue that

a raptor is much more likely to get lead shot from wounded birds , YET that isn't where they keep going

they Keep going after rifles and gut piles , there can be lead fragments but less and less more people go to bonded bullets and if they shoot a heavy bullet >90% exits the animal

because upland bird hunters tend to be more likely to be supporting their elections , the common man with a rifle is more likely to be a meat deer hunter.

they like to say the numbers for raptor poisoning peek after deer season , well upland game bird season runs the 6 weeks prior to deer season and the 4 weeks after.

now while out pheasant hunting we had hawks constantly circling us and we got all of our birds in the woods

if there is an excess of raptors , like one in every mile driving down the highway, there are more Eagles today than at any time in my life , it used to be a special thing to see one now it is nearly a weekly occurrence just get a few miles out of town.

also the hypocrisy abounds when you start talking anything lead or bird death

I was at a meeting last week for youth shooting sports and a DNR employee was there , he is also a volenteer in the youth shooting sports org

we were talking about ordering pellets for the air rifles , when he said "are we still using lead" , me -Yes, he said "well the DNR is going to really start cracking down on the lead at outdoor ranges we should look at switching " he went on to say , " indoors would be fine , but outdoors "

this is south west WI home of lead mines it is in the soil so your not making the water argument
you just killed your safety of the kids argument by saying indoors is fine
as a caster lead vapors don't become an issue till you exceed 900 degrees
the pellets guns shoot at 600fps and the pellets hitting cardboard never fragment or become air born particles and would be a significantly lower risk outdoors than in.

so what is the valid argument for hating on pellets or even bullets buried in a berm on a designated range where there is 50+ years of lead already, keeping it all in the same place makes the most sense.

with no logic then it is about hating on something for some other reason.
to end common shooting , to close ranges where freedom loving people gather , so if it is a slow march to a communist dictator count me out we can keep the lead

Last edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE; 10/30/22 12:07 PM.

America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704578
10/30/22 12:06 PM
10/30/22 12:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,070
Barnum, MN
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ScottW Offline
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ScottW  Offline
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Barnum, MN
Agreed Pete. I don’t see the reasoning there, as I said earlier target practice etc I think is fine. With the impact being very small overall the negative impact from lead in dirt piles is the closest thing one could get to non-existent. Happy trapping! ScottW

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704585
10/30/22 12:11 PM
10/30/22 12:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16,717
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hippie Offline
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Are more birds found sick during hunting season because more outdoorsmen are out and about?
An increase from what #? What caused the lead poisoning in the others?

I don't trust liberal institutions to put out non-biased info in the least.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704588
10/30/22 12:25 PM
10/30/22 12:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 986
Louisiana
M
MattLA Offline OP
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MattLA  Offline OP
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Posts: 986
Louisiana
All of these points are precisely my main reason for posting. Its a bad argument with little or no actual proof of whats causing it. How many eagles are they catching that are healthy and testing them for lead? It just seems bizarre that they would jump right to rifles shooting lead bullets as the cause, when in my opinion there are likely multiple different reasons.

I also disagree completely because the law prevents ordinary and or average persons to catch random sets of eagles to test them.

Gov: Only us and authorized tribal members can do anything to bald eagles.
Gov: Our studies indicate lead rifle bullets are killing bald eagles.
Citizen: Well ill do a random test too, where do I bring the eaglea for testing? Ill use the same trap, the same handling procedures as you.
Gov: You are not authorized to do anything with bald eagles, only we can.
Citizen: But....
Gov:No buts, we know what we are doing and wouldnt lie to the public.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704607
10/30/22 01:06 PM
10/30/22 01:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,623
South Dakota
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Rat Masterson Offline
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South Dakota
When they passed the ban for waterfowl, same deal. Just people with an agenda.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: hippie] #7704655
10/30/22 02:35 PM
10/30/22 02:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 109
Wisconsin
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Average Joe Offline
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Wisconsin
Originally Posted by hippie
Originally Posted by Average Joe
I was shocked to learn that less than 5% of the population hunts.
Let that sink in.


Yet we're the cause of the lead poisoning? Let that sink in.



Oh, l’m not saying hunters are the only, or even a significant contributor. I think the issue is being blown way out of proportion, but that doesn’t mean it never happens or can’t happen. Or that we should ignore it.
There’s no denying that an eagle could get sick from a gut pile (or gamebird as someone else pointed out). And there are certainly people out there that could be upset about that.
My “less than 5%” stat was to get people to think about and remember that we are way, way outnumbered, and if it comes right down to it we will not be the ones calling the shots (no pun intended).


Official owner of the “Most Foolish Post Ever”
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Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704665
10/30/22 03:00 PM
10/30/22 03:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,679
Ohio
S
stinkypete Offline
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stinkypete  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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Ohio
Waterfowl. Whole different ball game. You could open up any diver ducks gizzard. Full of lead shot. I find it hard to believe on the eagles. Proof is in the birds gizzard. Very simple to find the lead

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704683
10/30/22 03:38 PM
10/30/22 03:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,700
wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline
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danvee  Offline
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wyoming southeast
They die here all the time you shoot them they get lead poisoning, Check and see how many die each year getting flash fried on power lines.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704707
10/30/22 04:26 PM
10/30/22 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,654
IA
T
teepee2 Offline
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teepee2  Offline
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Posts: 1,654
IA
Bottom line is population. How is it doing? I live in Iowa along the Mississippi. I know of 8 eagle nests that you can see from the road in my county alone. I believe the DNR claims eagles are nesting in every county. There were NO nest not that long ago in the entire state. With that said, yes eagles die of lead poisoning and high lines and windmills. But overall they are doing very well. So why the big hullabaloo.

Last edited by teepee2; 10/30/22 04:26 PM.
Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704761
10/30/22 05:56 PM
10/30/22 05:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,016
MN
M
Mark K Offline
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Mark K  Offline
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Posts: 5,016
MN
I was reminded of Rumpelstilskin the other day as two friends and I drove home from a successful duck and goose-hunting trip. You remember Rumpelstilskin was the guy who spun straw into gold. Our conversation that afternoon concerned lead fishing tackle, how it is reputedly dangerous to fish eating birds, and how replacing lead fishing tackle with other substances is akin to junking your SUV for an electric car or eliminating logging or preventing oil exploration. Like Rumpelstilskin; the bureaucrats, academicians, environmental radicals, and animal rights groups are spinning lead fishing tackle into gold for their coffers while trying for an even bigger prize. An explanation is in order.
Lead is a valuable and useful element. Throughout history it has provided the greatest weight and density per unit for everything from fishing weights and ballast to missiles shot from guns as shotgun pellets and bullets. In combination with other elements, its’ expansion as shot or as a bullet can be controlled for maximum benefit to shooters, soldiers, and hunters. It is relatively inert and has been used in paints, pottery, and gasoline to improve the performance and durability of an abundance of products in myriad ways.
It also can cause harm to people and birds under certain circumstances. While the line “he died of lead poisoning” always brought a chuckle to fans of old westerns, lead has caused death and loss of thinking capacity in humans and it has caused the death of seed-eating birds who eat it like small gravel for grit to grind up seeds in their crop. When the lead is used as grit it often is slowly accumulated in the birds tissues as it passes through the gut with the seeds. If the bird eats enough lead long enough, a fatal level of accumulation will eventually kill the bird.
Over the past twenty years, lead has played the “heavy” (pardon the pun) in several environmental fundraisers. Originally there was the speculation about lead in wine pots being a major reason for the decline of the Roman Empire. Archaeologists reported that wine may have reacted with the clay in Roman pots to diminish the mental capacity of Romans who then became fodder for hordes of Vandals, Huns, and Goths who, I guess, drank only wine from (skins?) or were teetotalers.
Reportedly lead was found in European glacial ice. Speculation about medieval leadworks emitting fumes from Rome to Norse lands was given as the source. “Experts” freely made further speculation about the dire effects of such fumes on Europeans.
Then came the claims that “inner city” children were doing poorly in schools because of lead poisoning that was caused by eating paint in older homes. So lead paint was banned. This was then followed up by claims that only those inner city kids living along heavily driven streets had the highest lead poisoning symptoms as a result of leaded gasoline, so leaded gasoline was banned everywhere.
Then came the big brouhaha about lead shotgun shot being responsible for the death of millions of waterfowl (mainly ducks and geese) annually. Large die-offs on certain wintering grounds such as Lake Catahoula in Louisiana were extrapolated to paint a loss of birds nationwide. Never mind that the few places with specific conditions (hardpan bottom, a dearth of grit, and shallow water) really didn’t apply to most duck hunting places like rivers, fields, and lakes. Public pressure was generated, ammunition companies and even the NRA eventually went along and lead shot for waterfowl hunting was banned. Soon all national wildlife refuges and many state areas banned lead shot for all hunting. Replacement materials were not as efficient and they were much more costly. Shooting ranges both outdoors and indoors came under pressure to ban lead. Hunting sites came under pressure because they “polluted the environment” and lawsuits to ban either hunting or shooting ranges often cited the “pollution”. This in spite of the fact that lead doesn’t break down readily and seep into water supplies or fish as many people have been led to believe. Much of this was way overblown but it served the aims of several of the “usual suspects”.
Environmentalists gained another control point over hunting as they raised funds to stop lead pollution. Animal rights groups gained a fundraiser to help stop hunting that not only kills animals but poisons the environment as well. Bureaucrats gained a moneymaker to expand staff and budgets to study, regulate, manage, and enforce necessary environmental safeties. Ammunition companies got the usual markup on ammunition anywhere from two to five times as expensive as lead. Academicians got yet another topic to receive grant money to study and ponder in our ever expanding war to “save the environment”. Politicians got a great paragraph for fundraisers and vote getters as they assured the public about how they were saving them from a fate like Rome. Anyone who questioned all this was marginalized as ignorant, crazy, or just plain out of step. Objectors disappeared in the avalanche of support.
Enter the loon, stage right, in this dramatic saga. You all know the loon. Every two-bit movie from Tarzan to Indiana Jones and even a current Mercedes SUV ad use the call of the loon as a wilderness sound bite. Loons summer in northern states and Canada and they winter in southern coastal states and Mexico. They have decreased lately much to the chagrin of birdwatchers and those who own cabins and homes on northern lakes where their calls are as familiar as a stringer of walleye or a mallard and ringneck on the middle seat of a canoe.
While most of those lakes have fish-eating advisories for humans (not if your pregnant, strip the fat, no more than X ounces once a week, etc.) due to metal and PCB levels, the fish-eating loons are evidently not diminished by such dangers. No, the loon has been determined to be diminished by, you guessed it, lead fishing tackle.

The same two Federal agencies (EPA and the Fish and Wildlife Service) who got this started are the same two agencies who have knowingly permitted the dumping of tons of toxic waste from the Washington DC water system to be dumped routinely through a National Park onto the spawning grounds of the Endangered shortnose sturgeon in the Potomac River in Washington DC.
A few years ago, they managed to collect about two hundred dead loons. This was no mean feat considering loons are solitary birds year around. Approximately ten percent of the birds had died of lead poisoning. All of those birds had fishing tackle in their guts. Pretty clearly the birds had found minnows on fishing tackle that had broken off from a fisherman’s rod and reel. No doubt this was due to the line getting snagged and parting when the fisherman tried to free it. The rest of the birds had died from an assortment of nondescript causes. The answer (during the last Administration) was to begin considering the banning of the evil lead products used by fishermen. I hadn’t heard anything about this since the election of President Bush but evidently it is still out there perking. My duck and goose hunting friends had heard about it and had read about how it is a good idea to replace lead with other products. Well, like so many other environmental “necessities” this is a bogus notion meant to spin lead, once again, into gold for the “usual suspects”. So how can I say that if lead fishing tackle is causing loons to die from lead poisoning it is not a good idea to ban lead fishing tackle?
It is undeniable that scientifically we have shown significant loon mortality from lead fishing tackle. Bureaucrats, environmentalists, animal rightists, academicians, tackle manufacturers, outdoor writers, and soon enough our favorite politician all confirm this. So, only a nut would deny it or argue that banning lead tackle won’t save loons (and other fish-eaters like cormorants and possibly pelicans, etc.) right? Wrong!
In order to die of lead poisoning, loons and other fish-eaters have to ingest the lead and stew it in their stomach acids for several days. Unlike the seed-eating birds, the fish-eaters have no crop and like you and I pass their food through strong stomach acids that break it down for the intestine to absorb into their bodies. During this time the lead is slowly ingested into the blood (since it cannot be passed because the wad of tackle is jammed in the guts) until it reaches a toxic level and the bird dies from starvation and exposure caused by a toxic level of lead in the tissues. The reason that banning lead won’t make any difference is that the bird would die anyway. The bird eats a fish that is on a hook that is attached to a nylon leader and often a metal leader that is attached to a length of fishing line with a weight (i.e. a piece of lead) on it. With all that stuff wadded up in its’ gut and perhaps with the hook caught on something, the fact of whether the bird dies in a week from lead poisoning or from failure to digest any other food with the big backlash in a knot in its’ stomach is academic. It will die whether the weight is lead or molybdenum or gold. What kills it is the damage to the gut and the closure of the gut to the passage of any food. But who will tell you this?
Not the environmentalist who wants to get funds to “save” birds. Not the animal rights folks who want to raise money to ban fishing and now have yet another “reason” to do so. Not the bureaucrat who will get staff and money to enforce, study, regulate, etc. Not the academician who sees a gold mine of grants and studies and who no longer offends any powerful entities on environmental matters. Not the governmental land manager who sees yet another reason to restrict yet another activity on public lands. Not the tackle manufacturer who wants to replace all the lead in tackle boxes with a higher priced replacement. Not the state agencies who, like outdoor writers see fishing, trapping, and hunting as activities soon to be replaced by bicycles and paved paths in the cities and more TV watching in the countryside. These same folks, like the academics, are also reluctant to get tagged with an “environmentally insensitive” label. Not the UN and EU bureaucrats who are slowly restricting fishing everywhere. No, lead is a perfect foil for the agendas of all those who aim to make so much of what free people do, illegal. The similarity between all this and so many other environmental and animal rights slight of hands is chilling. While they all profit, all of us lose. We they tell us their truth and feel self righteous about doing so much “good”. Who can we look to for help? How can we stand up to these constant chips out of our way of life and the freedoms that our forefathers fought so hard to create and preserve?
Keep this in mind as you read in catalogs or hear speakers talk about how banning lead tackle is the right thing to do.
Lead tackle bans are like other environmental hobgoblins, which are used with increasing abuses of the Endangered Species Act, the Animal Welfare Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, and the National Environmental Protection Act. Lead tackle bans decrease fishing just like critical habitats threaten logging and ranching, just like animal welfare committees threaten medical experiments, and just like UN and US Marine Mammal managers prevent any whaling or sealing management. Wilderness designations and Roadless Areas, like Park and Refuge lands have made millions of acres off limits to oil or coal or gas exploration as well as development. This latter in the teeth of a period when we are reluctant to offend Saudi Arabs because we need their oil.
We have seen where these laws and environmental crises are leading us. If the current Administration, Senate, and House only deal with the terror threat while allowing these laws to remain, the eventual victory over these terrorists may prove hollow. This is because future activist Administrations will have the experience and examples of the last Administration and the blank checks issued by these laws to violate both common sense and the Constitution of the United States to manipulate everything from citizen activities to formerly private property from a central power. We need change while reasonable changes are possible. Things like lead fishing tackle bans need to be put to rest publicly just as serious amendment of these environmental laws must be effected.
Jim Beers
12-16-02
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim Beers is a retired US Fish & Wildlife Service wildlife biologist, law enforcement officer, and refuge manager. He is concerned about the increasing accumulation of fish and wildlife responsibilities at the Federal level and it's deleterious effects on wildlife, resource users, and the American way of life.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704867
10/30/22 07:54 PM
10/30/22 07:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 14,787
Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
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Green County Wisconsin
Mark K , what they liked to keep out of the studies was that the other inner city kids of a different ethnicity lived in the same houses and apartments along the same streets and were not impacted the same.

so one group of kids , lead caused all their issues , while the kids in the next apartment didn't have those issues even though all the same environmental factors were the same.

well there was one big difference but it wasn't lead.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704932
10/30/22 09:24 PM
10/30/22 09:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,993
MN
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walleye101 Offline
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MN
Thanks Mark, That Jim Beers article is excellent. It takes a strong set of nads to bring facts to an emotional issue.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704942
10/30/22 09:32 PM
10/30/22 09:32 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,007
Green Bay, Wisconsin
tlguy Offline
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tlguy  Offline
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Green Bay, Wisconsin
So what if it kills a few, or even a few dozen. We have tons of white headed vultures in Wisconsin with confirmed breeding pairs in 71 orlf 72 counties in Wisconsin. You think ammo is hard to find now, ask the guys in Cali how easy it is to buy copper rifle ammo. I haven't seen 30.06 on the shelves in 2 years already.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704944
10/30/22 09:34 PM
10/30/22 09:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,623
South Dakota
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Rat Masterson Offline
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South Dakota
But if it saves one eagle.

Re: lead ammo eagle poisoning [Re: MattLA] #7704954
10/30/22 09:50 PM
10/30/22 09:50 PM
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Posts: 3,644
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
I wonder how much more lead is lost fishing than rifle hunting. It seems much more likely that Eagles especially would be eating fish with lead rather than gut piles. When everyone is out hiking/hunting in the fall they are likely finding more Poisioned Raptors

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