That is an interesting thought.

Yotetrapper you and I are on the same page. But you know that modern Bible scholars will tell you that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to us because Jesus was speaking to the Jews.

If the tribulation last 3.5 years and the wrath of God last 3.5 years then it only makes sense that Matthew 24 and the rest of the Olivette discourse also applies to us. As Jesus said is Mark 13
Mark 13:37 KJV
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So apparently this scripture does apply to everyone, or Jesus would be a liar and he's not.

There is no biblical basis for anything other than a post tribulation/pre wrath rapture, and I believe that these lies have been propagated into modern Christian group think by folks who want us to stay quiet and silent as the world descends into a one world govt. So that they can then usher in the Antichrist and go to war with the saints.... War with the saints, huh... How can the Antichrist go to war with the saints if they are all raptured out?

He can't. There is so many holes in the modern dispensationalism false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture that it makes my head spin.

Modern dispensationalism that is a brainchild of John Nelson Darby and pushed by Scofield reference bible is the only reason anyone even believes or pushes this doctrine. There is 0 basis is scripture for it. Absolutely none.

But it sure cucked the Christians didn't it? Makes us as docile as the world leaders need us to be. Tolerant if you will

I'm not tolerant, I'm not docile, I don't believe horse feathers and I'll never buy that garbage. But I'm only one man. I call myself a Bible believing Christian but that means the world hates me for it. Even the "Christians" that have bought into this doctrine.

Sorry I think my rant is over. Check back later

Oh I'll add this.... I don't believe the mark of the beast will be anything like the world tells us it will. It won't be a chip, or barcode. It's going to be spiritual because all of those who receive it have to worship the beast and his image. It will be Lucifer's version of the Holy Ghost indwelling the saints. It will be a spiritual seal that you can never remove and will (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) you till the day of reformation

We usually argue theology with humility and an understanding that as followers of Christ, all of us who are finite are illuminated and gifted by the same infinitely powered Spirit that rose our Lord from the grave. Ken, I respect your theology but your paint brush for those who don't believe as you do is flawed because it's too harsh.

Most importantly, God's promise according to Scripture, of a bodily resurrection and an eternity with Him for His followers being a gift of divine grace is far, far greater than any debate among the faithful about the chronology of Jesus, Israel and the Church's future happenings.

Blessings,
Mark

Pre tribulation rapture started in the 1800's.? Like I said I have not studied as much as I should and am working on it but besides what I all ready stated that just seems a bit to new age for me. I should gave asked my preacher about his thoughts tonight at bible study.

Yes Mark I agree that we usually agree. And maybe bring so divisive isn't the best tactic though that is what Jesus came to do. Divide, fullfil and save. There is no basis in scripture it is only found in the libraries of man made books where better trained and more knowledgeable men than me tell you what they know to be true based off of other men's teachings. If you can show my just one clear scripture that proves a pre-tribulation rapture is love to see it, because I know the true Word of God doesn't contradict itself even one time.

I'll just say it upfront so we are all out in the open about it. Mankind has been lead astray by men telling other men what the Bibles says and means. We have no need that any man teach us but that Holy Ghost teacheth comparing spiritual with spiritual, meaning new and old testament, meaning scripture with other scripture. Not the Bible with man's teachings (See 1 Corinthians 2).

Seminary, Bible college, often times Sunday school, and creepy televangelists are all perverting the gospel, the truth of Gods word, and the clear doctrines that any saved man can read from the Bible and gleen the truth from. I know you are a well educated man when it comes to modern "biblical" education, and this post is not a direct attack on you or twords you, I am however sworn to defend the faith. As a Christian I will never sit idly by and be quiet when the only real defense I have of the Word of God is my own voice and education I have received at the hands of the Holy Spirit.

So with that out of the way Jesus had something to say about the Scribes and Pharisees, who like many in modern times believed they are more educated than the lowest of Hebrews, and it wasn't good. They killed him for it infact.
The point I am making is no one on the green earth has the right to tell other men they just can't understand the Bible because they don't have the proper education, or have the right concordance, or study Bible, and that is exactly what very educated men from seminary, Bible college, or a pontifical college do; they teach the men underneath them that they know better, and that they will show you the way. It's one of my biggest pet peeves and something that gets me pretty riled up. And I'll admit I am one of the worst Christians you will know but I'm going to heaven no matter what when I die, not because of my own works, which I have done, but because of Jesus'perfect, finished works. I know this because the Bible says so. Not because men taught me this, men more often than not teach the exact opposite. They teach a false works based salvation, and a separation between one group over the other. That's not biblical al men are on the same playing field and all men can be saved by putting their faith on what Jesus did for us.

Dispensationalism the brainchild of John Nelson Darby, who by the way is a reprobate for removing scripture out of God's word, is the driving force for all of this horrible doctrine that is taught in modern Bible college. And I am a 0 point dispensationalists. Everything that fool said was a lie and meant to pervert the truth for his own gain. And the funny thing is is he didn't even realize his dream in his lifetime. After years of touring the Americas to spout his blasphemous views he died without ever seeing where it would go, but Oxford pushed it into the Scofield reference bible and made it biblical fact amongst Bible believing Christians and now that doctrine and all of it's offspring is taught to every kid in Bible college on the planet as biblical cannon. Which it is not and the purpose for disseminating this wicked doctrine was to turn the Christians into weaklings so they would not stand up against the world government. This was a plan that had been in action since before the 1830s and there's not a man alive today that grew up in a time where these doctrines were not shoved down their throats as fact.

I will never entertain the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture because no one has ever produced a scripture to prove it. But I can produce many that prove a post-trib and pre-wrath catching away.

I believe that things, especially the Bible, are too convoluted to believe anything. Wait and see.

I will respond again tomorrow with all of the scripture that comes to mind to prove my position above. For now here is the best timeline chart I've seen on the catching away or rapture. Anyone who is interested should read it and consult the Word of God(KJV) to see it's authenticity.

Daniel's 70th Week

Don't wait and see when it comes to your salvation Rex. Anyone can be saved. Forget everything you've ever learned and approach the Gospel as a child. Any man can be saved an sealed with the Holy Spirit by putting ALL of their faith on the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's that simple.

Ken you make some very good points. Thank you for sharing

PF, I didn't post that PreTrib theology began in the 1800's, but I did post that its acceptance has grown since that time.
As a pastor, here's what I preach and teach and it emanates from Mark's record of what Jesus said to the scribes (attorneys so to speak) of His time and is taken straight from Moses words from God to the Israelites (Deut 6:4 and Lev 19:18);
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

I remember this quote often as it reminds me of the primacy of things to come...
“The great doctrine of the second advent has in a sense fallen into disrepute because of . . . this tendency on the part of some to be more interested in the how and the when of the second coming rather than in the fact of the second coming.” – Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I also remember Eschatology is all about Jesus and that He alone paid the price for sin and was Risen from the grave.... and that He has not yet returned.
And when he does, believers will be with him forever (1 Thess. 4:18).
Christians should encourage one another with these words and study eschatology with hope and joy.
And extend grace to one another as we study Scripture because God first loved us.

Love God, Love Others.
Blessings,
Mark

Ken, I read your post and wonder why you seem so opposed (based on your post) to followers of Christ gathering together and studying together for extended periods of time in places like seminaries and bible colleges? Maybe you had a bad experience at some point with someone who attended seminary? Or a Bible College? Me too. But that's not unique to those who venture to study the Word of God on a campus. I've met some pretty harsh folks who study (they say) at their kitchen table I guess. My experience at seminary was quite different than the picture you paint. I learned from incredibly brilliant people who were incredibly humble serving as they do as teachers of God's Word, which I thought was remarkable since my first experience in grad school back in the late 70's and early 80's was to learn (biology) from very smart people who were incredible pompous about their academic status.

Jesus' disciples were taught for at least two years, and some scholars place that time frame as closer to three years, before our Lord sent them out as Apostles. And the early church established a three year period of study, based on Jesus' example with His disciples, for those individuals who said, "I believe." And the Church Fathers all were discipled for years.... Polycarp by the Apostle John and on and on. It's always been this way. People gathering and learning from those who preceded them and have studied at great length.

Now, in our post-modern era, our culture shuns and even rebukes authority and so "Seminary is cemetery" is falsely claimed. In our Western-ized brand of the Gospel, it's often taught all a believer needs is an emotional inkling of Jesus in their heart and a Bible to fully know God. "I see that hand!" is the 1960's quickie version of what used to be a walk with God for extended periods of time with others in the faith. Now, sadly, we're a culture in the West steeped in Salvation... so once I've got mine, good luck to ya! is too easily claimed as the wrong theology of those God calls His Children.

But in any prideful bubble of "me and my Jesus", we don't have to struggle with the Love Others instruct from our Lord.
When we say we alone hold the truth, well then other people's opinions of Scripture, worship songs, church iconography and all the rest irritate us to no end.

So it's best to gather as Jesus' disciples did, under the tutelage of those who preceded us in the faith and who've devoted themselves to Loving God and Loving Others.
These gatherings will of course stretch us, test us, make us rethink things through 1000 times over, but in the end have us consider where we extend our grace, as the testament of our God who first loved us.

Our aim should be always to arrive at a point, as we gather together and study the Word of God deeply together, that we come to the wondrous realization that God is far grander than we could have ever imagined. That's what sound biblical teaching does to us. By God's grace and by His Spirit in us.

Blessings,
Mark

I really like your response Mark. And I agree with a lot of what you said. My issue isn't with Christians gathering together or studying together. My issue rather is with the standardized teaching of false doctrine to the masses by way of Bible college or seminary. I don't have any bad experiences with people in these institutions I have a problem with the lies they push as fact. It's not all men in these institutions and I know that the biggest part of Christians that attended and work for these institutions are good people wanting to share the knowledge and grace they learn there. That doesn't change that fact that 99% of the flase doctrine that exist comes from these institutions and their teacher's.

It doesn't change the fact that dispensationalism is a devil's doctrine that has rotted the ability for people to see and understand the clear doctrines in the word of God. Only a saved man with the Holy Spirit can begin to understand the Bible. Salvation is only by grace through faith and nothing more, anyone trusting in anything else is unsaved and cannot understand the Bible anyway because the Holy Ghost is the teacher. Not a man, not a school and not a study Bible or commentary. If we compare spiritual with spiritual there is no verse, not one to prove any doctrine of dispensationalism.

Be blessed

If the antichrist was not of Jewish descent the Jews would not trust him, would they?

The tribe of Dan won't be in the 144,000, will they?

All I really want is a decent price on 'coon. . .

My response is humble and offered in that framework, but your view on dispensationalists would include me, and a great many worthy followers of Christ, who strive to read Scripture literally (including prophecy) and believe that Israel is separate from the Church.

Blessings,
Mark

Thou sayest Mark, thou sayest.
This is the position you have chosen to take. There is no verse that separates Israel from all other saved people anywhere in the Bible. And you cannot produce one. But I can produce verses to prove this is not true and will do so , but first I will destroy the doctrine on a pre-tribulation rapture with the Word of God as I previously said I would

1) The Olivette Discourse
This is the passage in scripture where Jesus is sitting on the Mt. of olives and is asked "what shall be the sign of thy coming?" By his disciples. (and I know the first response by a dispensationalists is to claim that these were only spoken to the Jews, because all of his disciples were Jews, but Simon was a Cyrenian, and Judas was a reprobate)
Here is the verse so we are all on the same page.

Matthew 24:3-4 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-Notice Jesus'response

[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

This is a verse I take very literally, and so should every Christian. See Jesus knew that all throughout time men would attempt to deceive Christians by creating lies about his coming. So the first thing out of his mouth and response was to tell them not to be deceived. Then he follows with a very carefully worded response.

Yotetrapper already picked the juicy parts out of Matthew 24 that prove the catching away(rapture) comes after the tribulation and it couldn't have been any clearer. Because God is not the author of confusion.
Here is that passage.

Matthew 24:29-33 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Before we dissect the scripture and everything Jesus said in it I want you to notice what he said in verse 33 and I want to post the parallel scriptures from Luke and Mark.

Jesus said in verse 33 when ye shall see ALL these things, KNOW that IT is NEAR.

So what is near? well the return of Jesus, and the end of the world.
What are all of these things? These are the many events Jesus described above.
What does the word know mean? It means to perceive with certainty; to understand clearly, and to have a clear and certain perception of Truth, fact, or anything that actually exists

The Bible clearly teaches that God is true and every man a liar. So Jesus never lied to us, not one time, in fact it was impossible for him to lie

Titus 1:2 KJV
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice in that verse that the Bible's teaching you that God cannot lie especially about the hope of eternal life.

But I digress, let's continue with the other 2 scriptures.

We are going to start with Luke 21 even though it is out of order for the scriptures because I want to save Mark for after.
This is the beginning of the scripture where the disciples ask Jesus about his return, and below you see his initial response is the same as Matthew.

Luke 21:7-8 KJV
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
[8] And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Be not deceived

The latter verses

Luke 21:25-31 KJV
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in
the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
[27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
[28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[29] And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
[30] When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
[31] So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Notice the same order of events and statements.
1 Signs in the sun and moon, and it is recorded in Matthew they will be darkened
2 Then shall you see the Son of man coming in a cloud, same as Matthew
3 Then Jesus taught about the parable of the fig tree, which is instrumental and we will get into that after this.
4 And finally Jesus tells them that when they see these things come to pass know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This is a very clear statement from Jesus Christ our Lord and savior that all of those things must come to pass and then the rapture, or catching away, or the kingdom of God is nigh (which means near) at hand. So all of these things must first come to pass.

Now in the book of Luke the term "After the tribulation" is not recorded, but before Luke 21:25 through 31 you get a description of the tribulation that the Christians that are on earth must suffer. Here is a few of those verses to help you understand how the Antichrist makes war with the saints.

Luke 21:10-12 KJV
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
[11] And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
[12] But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

So we see here that Nation will rise against Nation that earthquakes shall be in diverse places, and famines, and pestilences, and fearful sights and Great signs there shall be from heaven, BUT before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before Kings and rulers for the sake of Jesus's name.

Funny statement there from Jesus that whenever they lay their hands on you, and persecute you, that they will deliver you to the synagogues. That's a side note, let's continue.

Now the first verses from The book of Mark

Mark 13:3-6 KJV
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
[4] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
[5] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
[6] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and shall deceive many.

Notice all of the points I made above are still here and have not changed.

Then the latter part.

Mark 13:24-29 KJV
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[28] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
[29] So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Notice the same order of events and signs as recorded in the book of Matthew
1) After the tribulation
2) The sun and moon are darkened
3)The stars fall from heaven
4) And then shall you see Jesus coming in the Clouds
5) then his Angles gather together his Elect (which is saved Christians) from earth to heaven.
6) then the parable of the Fig tree.

The last verse of Mark 13, as I said above proves that these scriptures are for all, not just the Jews.

Mark 13:37 KJV
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

And remember all scripture is profitable for doctrine

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Now this post it too long and I am afraid of losing it so I am going to continue this in the next post right now..

The next thing we need to do in order to be true to the Word of God is to compare these scriptures with other scriptures comparing spiritual with spiritual as the Bible says.

So we find these topics discussed in 3 separate places. The first being the book of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5. Now I believe that even dispensationalists believe 1 Thessalonians 4 to be a scripture directly discussing the catching away. This is a scripture that is not debated by any religion that I am aware of.

I will post the scripture below and explain the correlation to the Olivette discourse

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Verse number..
13) instructs you not to be ignorant, not to sorrow those who believed and have already died
14) says if you believe the gospel (the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ) that this is proof that all of those which previously believed and have died will also be resurrected. This is when all of the physically dead Christians that lived on the Earth are resurrected with a new body.
15) is very plain to understand
16) this is where we see the return of Jesus from heaven meaning from the clouds and the resurrection of the dead.
17) this verse clearly teaches that those which are still alive will also be caught up together with them in the clouds.
18) verse 18 is one of the most comforting scriptures in the Bible and used by pastors all over the planet to help people deal with death.

But what you don't see in 1 Thessalonians 4 are the first verses of 1 Thessalonians 5. It is important to understand that in the original manuscripts of the Textus Receptus(which means the received text and is the original text of ancient Hebrew Greek and Aramaic) that there were no numbers for the books or the scriptures and that these letters were written as a full letter so there is no separation between chapter 4 and chapter 5. And anybody with basic English skills, which I have very little of can see this by reading the first word of the first verse of chapter 5.

That word is But, but is a conjunction which means it is continuing the thought or statement from the previous word or verse.

Here are the scriptures of chapter 5

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 KJV
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [
6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
[7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
[10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Verse number..
1) Paul is telling the Thessalonians that he doesn't need to write to them about the season and times, why you might ask, because Jesus already clearly taught us that we will see those things come to pass and then the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. They already KNOW this.
2) the term thief in the night is used by people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture that it's going to happen suddenly and you will have no idea that it's going to happen. But Paul explains that that only applies to those who are in darkness.
3) this verse is strangely similar to versus out of the olivette discourse that explain the hardships that Christians will have to go through in the tribulation
4) this is the verse where Paul says to the Thessalonians that they are not in darkness and that that day will not overtake them as a thief that comes in the night.
5) everyone saved with the Holy Ghost is a child of light
6) therefore we should be sober and so many verses use those two words watch, and sober. These words go together very often because in order to watch and pay attention to the signs that are coming you must have a sober mind.
7) obviously the opposite of sobriety is drunkenness which is what verse 7 has to say
8) verse 8 more of the same teaching us that we should be faithful and use love and have hope of salvation
9) verse 9 is the verse that dispensationalist used to claim that we are raptured out before the tribulation. The main problem with this doctrine is that there is a difference between the tribulation of the saints, and the wrath of God. The Bible teaches a separation between these two at about 1260 days of one, which is the tribulation, and 1260 days of the other which is the wrath of God. God could not be here to have wrath unless he had returned. This verse proves that Jesus comes back after the tribulation, and after the Great tribulation, which last for 75 days, is the wrath of God that we are saved from. Which is why we are raptured out after the tribulation before the wrath of God.
10) verse 10 compliments the last half of verse 9 which teaches that salvation is only obtained by our Lord Jesus Christ because of his death, and whether we're dead or alive we will live together with him.

Now these are all facts that the Bible clearly teaches and any man can clearly understand these if they first believed and are sealed with the Holy Ghost.

This is one of the three places this comes up. My next post will show all of you including Mark the unrefutable proof from the prophecy of the book of Revelation that lines up exactly with these two previous groups of scripture the olivette discourse, and 1st Thessalonians.

In this post will go through the book of Revelation. Before we start the book of Revelation I want to let everyone in on an Open secret. The book of Revelation has 22 chapters and is split directly in half after chapter 11 between chapter 12. This is a common theme that we see in the Bible and a good example is the split between the New and Old testament. The book of Revelation tells the exact same story two separate times from two separate perspectives. I will not be able to go into depth on the entire book of Revelation that would take me weeks and hundreds of thousands of words and probably 200 to 300 post. So without pushing this off any further let's deal with the events in Revelation that line up directly with the olivette discourse and 1st Thessalonians.

Let us first remember the order of the events that happened in the olivette discourse

1) After the tribulation
2) earthquake and the sun and moon are darkened
3)The stars fall from heaven
4) And then shall you see Jesus coming in the Clouds
5) then his Angles gather together his Elect (which is saved Christians) from earth to heaven.
6) then the parable of the Fig tree.

So the first verses I will post come from the 6th chapter of Revelation

Revelation 6:9-17 KJV
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Verse number...
9-11) I included to show you that the tribulation has passed. The souls of those who were killed by the Antichrist are already at the Throne of God in heaven, and they cry out to God for his wrath upon the Antichrist and his army. Then their ribs are given to them.
12) The 6th seal is opened which sets off the events leading to the return of Christ and happens before the rapture because we shall see him coming in the clouds. Then we see the events start to take place.
-1) earthquakes
-2) sun and moon darkened
13) The stars fall from Heaven, and the connection with the fig tree.
14) heaven opens like a scroll
15-16) proof Jesus Christ is coming with wrath and judgement for all the unsaved of the earth.
17) proof that the wrath of God is nigh, but not before the catching away.

Remember these things are the signs of the kingdom of heaven being nigh, or near, or close. But it is not yet. So we turn over to chapter 7 to see the results of the signs bmand prophecy being fulfilled of the return of Jesus.


Revelation 7:9-12 KJV
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Now before I use plain speech to explain the verses I want to tell you why I left out verses 1-8. These are important verses that deal with the 144,000 and is as plain as day who they are and what that means. They are sent to earth to preach the gospel to all those who are not yet reprobate that did not get raptured. It does name the tribes but replaces Dan with the younger son of Joseph who was blessed over his older brother by Jacob on his deathbed.
The tribe of Dan made mistakes and was cut off.

Anyways the Angels gather at the four corners of the earth and gather the saints, or the elect before the 144,000 are sent.

So verse number...
9) you first see the rapture of those that are dead or asleep, and of those that are alive and remain in heaven clothes in white robes.
10) they cried until God and worshiped him.
11) the Angels likewise
12) and the praise continues.


These are the events that prove that the rapture happens after the tribulation and that the events leading to the return of Christ are the signs we must see before he comes back.
If you read the first half of Revelation 6 you will see the other seals in The four horsemen and these are the events that are the tribulation. You see the war in the famine and the pestilence and the death and then you see The return of Christ. Don't ever forget and be not deceived these events must come to pass before Christ returns in the clouds.

The biggest problem with the doctrine of dispensationalism and its many false wicked doctrines, one of which is the pre-tribulation rapture, is that the people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture will believe that the Antichrist is Christ because the Antichrist comes before Christ. See the elect already know this to be true and cannot be deceived by the Antichrist. So the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is satanic at it's core. And once again I know you cannot provide one scripture to prove it. Because it cannot be done. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This is why Jesus warned to be not deceived

Luke 21:8-9 KJV
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. [9] But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

This is further proof that the first four seals bring about the four horsemen of the Apocalypse that is the tribulation that the saints must go through. The Bible has the word tribulation 25 times and the greatest percentage of the times it is mentioned it's about Christians going through a type of tribulation. Not being raptured out before it.

I put 2 hours into this tonight and this is all the time I have after 6 hours of trapping tomorrow and 9 hours of work I will get back on here and destroy the doctrine of the Fall separation of the Jews and the Christians.

Be blessed

So is there two wives or one?

The 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins and John the Baptist would be friends of the the Bridegroom, wouldn't they belong to the Father?

john 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.