I for one appreciate it Ken. I like the way you put it out there and you have given us a lot to read and think about. Thanks!

Bull.

Can you explain why the crusades even started? You focus on the event yet don't take the time or interest in the why.
Do you even know when it started?
Do you know when Muslims became followers of Mohammad the inventor of Islam ?
Do you know why history is being destroyed?
Wake up .

Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich

From what you're posting, is non believers in any religion ( heretics ). Guess you could go back to Noah and the ark. You're right that there were no or very few Christians until Jesus started teaching. But the word of God was known , and that a savior was coming. Those that killed him weren't believers in Christ , but believers in their times. Much like our times now, sports ( gladiators , games of death , lions killing followers of Jesus , anything to keep the people happy , and not thinking about the real life happenings) , think about it.How many watch football just because they've bet on the games? If they didn't bet , the games become less important. Same with most sports , either you have played or been involved with the sport , is what drives you to watch . EXCEPT BETTING ON THE OUT COME MAKES YOU FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE BUT THE GAME! Diversion is the name of the political game , been that way for thousands of years.

Ok trapper7 I'm going to put my previous goal of eviscerating the false Israel church separation on pause and use the Bible to prove that people who do not believe in a biblical catching away are most likely unsaved and those who teach it are most likely reprobate.

So strap in, cuz now I'm exited

Now to first respond to what you said I'll say this
I know plenty of people who believe dispensationalism that are not reprobates, but I don't know of any people who teach dispensationalism that are saved. I know that both Darby and Schofield are burning in H3!! And I can prove it with one scripture from the Bible if you know anything about their writings and teachings. If you don't then it's doesn't matter what Bible verse I share with you because you need to understand what they have done to realize their spiritual condition.

Don't for a second believe that Bible doctrine of any kind is a minor issue. We as Christians are to always defend the faith and preach the gospel. Just as Jesus did and his disciples they had to combat the false doctrine of their time in order to break the people's minds free from the cognitive dissonance of the Pharisees, priest, and Scribes. He did this by questioning these groups in front of the people and allowing the people to see how weak and shallow their responses were. It works.

Your comment about coming to Jesus as a child is great, I agree children don't know enough to get involved with the complications and receive the gospel at a much higher rate than adults who have made up their minds. It's a great thing to lead a child to Christ. But a babe is Christ doesn't have to be a child. There are babes in Christ in every church in America that are older than 50 because this has to do with the type of doctrine they know and understand and can digest. I am not a babe is Christ so I don't approach false doctrine as one. I would hope that the Bible that have shared will edify anyone who reads it.

So now I will show you what the Bible says about those who don't believe in the biblical catching away. Take out of this what you choose.

The Bible is clear on the coming of the Lord that the saints cannot be deceived by the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be d@mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Verse number..
1-2) Paul is telling the Thessalonians how they should not be deceived as if the Day of Christ is at hand because something has to happen first. We covered what this things are in the previous post but in verse (3) he sums it up as "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first", saying again not to be deceived by any man.
This is a very clear reference to the tribulation, and the Antichrist that makes war with the saints. If you don't believe that then read verse 4
4) verse 4 teaches who it is that will come FIRST and it is a man that will attempt to sit in the temple of God and shew himself to be God. This is the Antichrist
5) Paul explains that he already told them this
6) Paul tells them what is now preventing the day of the Lord, and that is that the Antichrist has not yet been revealed.
7) Paul explains that the mystery of iniquity is already at work on the Earth, and that this will continue until the Antichrist is taken out of the way.
8) and then when Jesus Christ comes back(brightness of his coming) the Antichrist will be destroyed with the spirit of his mouth. Okay this means the word of God the sword of the spirit the fact that God opens his mouth and destroys all of those who stand against him( see Rev 19:15,and 21).
9) once again a reference to the Antichrist that is destroyed because he comes with power and signs and lying wonders claiming that he is Christ.
10) and he also destroys all of those that are deceivable and unrighteous because they receive not the love of truth that they might be saved.
11) because they received not the love of the truth God sends them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie, this why is dispensationalism in today's modern times, this lie is believing in a pre-trib rapture because whenever you do that the first person to come is the Antichrist as the Bible says in second Thessalonians 2.

So if the Antichrist comes first who then do you believe is taking you to heaven?

Remember God gave them the strong delusion God turned them over to believe a lie God gave them up.

Why? Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because they chose not to believe the gospel.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So what is the result of not believing the gospel and being sent a strong delusion that they would believe a lie?

Verse 12.. that they all might be d@mned who believe not the truth.

So the scripture that Paul gives to the Thessalonians after he discussed in 1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 about how they know the order of the end times and should be comforted in the fact that the saved people they know will be resurrected by Christ, is teaching them that the people who don't understand this will eventually be d@mned.

And this is why that is true because the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ paid for all of the sins of every person on the planet, and that when they believe on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that they KNOW not only that they have eternal life because Jesus did promise that, but that they hear his voice and they will know the difference between Jesus and the antichrist. In a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine the only person that will show up first is the Antichrist and the pre-tribulationist believe that they will be raptured out before the tribulation. so when they see the Antichrist come and sit in the throne of God in the temple of God showing himself that he is God who do you think they're going to believe?

It's so simple even my kids can understand this.

So be p!ssy if you want. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believeth to the Jew first and to the Greek.

and I am not ashamed that I know the Bible well enough to be able to combat these horse feathers false doctrines that are being pushed on mankind today. I am truly sorry that you have been sucked into this but am I therefore your enemy for because I tell you the truth?

I'm still waiting for someone to produce one verse that proves a pre-tribulation rapture or the Jew Church separation. Just one verse, cuz I've got hundreds to prove it's not true

I was using heretics as an example. I get were your coming from Ohio about the believers in the coming Savior. It seems that there must been atliest 144000 that believed.

This is a heretic

This is why I don't go to church

Are you a follower of Stephen Anderson and his teachings?

That's OK Wolfe salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Not by a building through a religion. Keep searching for truth and go to God in prayer and he will give you answers.

This thread reminds me of having discussions with Pentecostal's on the state of my baptism since I was baptized in a Baptist church. It has been determined, by such folks, that being baptized in the name of the father, son, and Holy Ghost is insufficient. Only baptisms in the name of Jesus are acceptable.

Do we even need baptism anymore now that there is Facebook?

Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark

I'm a follower of Christ and his teachings. Remember Jesus is the Word of God. This is why you can only compare scripture with other scripture in the Bible. It seems this core doctrine has been lost amongst men and the result is clear by this thread. Everyone going their own way and no one agreeing on the foundation.

See if it were possible for us to all to agree we would walk together with just this one idea in mind. That idea is Christ and him crucified, but we can't agree, because even though I believe most of us in here honestly believe that Christ was God in the flesh and faith on his death, burial, and resurrection is what saves us; we have to debate the clear scriptures in the Bible because we cannot agree.

We have been fractured as Christians because men have moved in and taught us lies and doctrines like dispensationalism. They have split our families with labels such as baptist, or Methodist. This fracturing is by design. We were supposed to let NO MAN DECEIVE us, but the deceivableness of men seems to be even weaker than the flesh. We have become a nation of men with no foundation. No wonder this nation crumbles underneath us.

Here is one of Jesus' teachings.

John 6:28-29 KJV
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith alone is all you need. Try and add anything to it and it's not what was intended.

AMEN!!!

Parts of this thread is starting to remind of the little girl that goes to school and the bully steels her lunch after chasing her and wearing her down. Then to appease her, gives her something shiny as a replacement. Guess maybe that's how replacement therapy got started, lol.