A question for the non believers here.

While it is the sincere desire, and our commission, that everyone come to a saving knowledge of Christ we know and understand that will not be so for it is so written.

So that said please understand what I and my brothers and sisters believe is not an attack upon you and your's. It has never been within our power to disabuse you of your ability to choose.

But I think we all can agree that modern society has degraded to the point where we are all in danger of the immoral actions of others. Whether that immorality be the levying of politically motivated charges and imprisonment, the stripping of the right of self defense and arms, the abolishing of entire ways of life based on consumptive use of wildlife and natural resources, the enslavement of the working classes, the perversion of the natural relationship of men and women, the sexualization of the young and the total depravity of all.

So if we can agree that the direction is bad and that the core fundamental that the relationship that once held all that in check is the central moral concept of not harming others in how we choose even if that means not choosing a desired course due to potential harm to others. In other words self restraint and in the absence of self restraint we have the law which ultimately are put in place for a moral reason.

So on to my question.

When we the people who follow the ultimate morality and lawgiver, God, point out these things and suggest that others must be restrained from imposing their immorality upon the public square due to the visible harm it is doing do we get pushback from good people who otherwise would agree but are not believers?

Friction? Google the Hitchens V. Hitchens debate. Christopher Hitchens debating Peter Hitchens, brothers who fall on opposing sides of the conversation.

Fancy wording to the same thing I have heard my whole life. I was in grade school when I realized I was supposed to be some lesser person because I didn't believe the way others do.
It's always seemed to me the christian looking down in judgement.
I can get along with anyone that doesn't push their ways on me. Maybe the problem is how we define be pushed.

Mac

It absolutely IS an attack because of your belief that only someone that believes what you believe can be a moral person. Specifically this

If more followers is the goal, I suggest God appoint someone else as his spokesman on Tman.

Mighty high horse that the religious types sit on, just my 2 cents

The Proddys are a bunch of phoneys from the get go.

Very similar to what my grandmother would always (nicely) say. Great lady and never missed daily mass.

Y'all have fun on this one. I need to get back to work. She wouldn't want me loafing around on my phone all day.

Absolutely not, we are all equal in the eyes of God and I'm sorry if anyone made you feel otherwise.

I'm sorry if you consider a difference of definitions an attack.

Fact is none of us are moral, believer or non. We are what we are fallen creatures without an innate morality.

Our only guides have been external whether the God of creation or a human derived philosophy of ethics.

Even in the absence of a dogmatic ethic simple interaction of give and take imposes a semblance of structure.

Freedom of choice in case you missed that, freedom of choice in expression, in case you did not think about that either, the only friction is the that felt by those trying to hold others who don’t believe in those belief’s to believe in them !

warrior, I don't think anyone was talking about Gods eyes. The believers eyes are what I think they are talking about.. You are painting with a roller with what you said in your original post, by saying if you don't believe you are the problem. That is what I got from it.

Both side of the supposed divide in this country could use this same above posting.

Then they ruin it by letting extremist amount them cherry pick their hot topic items to defend themselves.

Anyone in the middle who truly feels this way. Doesn't feel the need to argue or defend themselves point on point. They get push by those extreme people with the. If you're not with me your against me. So no room for moderate to not be excepted by either of the two aggrieved parties.

Mac

True, but how is that freedom to choose playing out?

My point is not to impose some sort of iron fisted theocracy but instead to argue to those who may otherwise agree that our lack of morality whether defined by religious text or human philosophy is the root cause and we as a society of all beliefs need to steer the course back towards some semblance of a shared morality.

Choice is our ideal, choice without morality however sourced is destroying this nation.

You will find the same faults that plague any group of humans among Christians or those that call themselves Christians. I'm still a trapper despite the character flaws of other trappers.

Years and years of being talked down to by the religious folks that had a holier than thou attitude have whittled away at my tolerance level. Still I can get along with most folks as long as they don't peddle that crap at my door. Same as vegans, gays, democrats, snake oil sales folks and the list does on. I live in the sticks for a reason same as I lived out at anchor for a reason and not in the marina. Whatever diety folks have chosen, I am sure for them it is the right one that they picked and I do not begrudge them their choice. It just isn't for me.

Right.. I have read plenty here on TMan where people say that. So Im I to not read that as the none christians are the ones some how character flawed???

Mac

Four things that create friction on T-Man are:
Money
Religion
Politics
Wire vs Wood Stretchers

Well God help me for agreeing with BC that is a very rare occasion but I agree on this. Often the ones trying to give the lessons don’t follow the lesson plans themselves so it’s meaningless . I keep my religion to myself and don’t push it on others and don’t want it pushed on me the world if full of imperfect people and frauds that should work on improving themselves first.

My play for life is treat other well and expect to be treated the same but don’t take crap from anyone avoid problems if I can or meet them head on when needed always be honest and fair. This has served me well.