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Re: Do ground rods? [Re: warrior] #7856564
04/30/23 02:09 PM
04/30/23 02:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
SW WI
trapper20 Offline
trapper
trapper20  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2014
SW WI
Originally Posted by warrior
Originally Posted by gcs
I believe the 2-3 ground rod thing is for sketchy dry ground, I guess they figure at least one may get into proper soil....


I suspect that your right on that. Advising folks for a worst case scenario keeping in mind the conditions found in drier parts of the country. For most of the country east of the rockies finding soil with good moisture isn't a huge issue. That and possible consideration for lightning protection though they usually recommend a separate ground for that.


I beleive your right! Ive only ever used one ground rod for all my electric fences without issues

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7856576
04/30/23 02:22 PM
04/30/23 02:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
McGrath, AK
The last couple places I built in the states required two ground rods. I too have used the rebar in a foundation. Just clamp a #4 copper wire to the rebar and bring it out above the surface of the concrete.

Also built a hangar in which the electrical engineer required three ground rods al connected together.........in the hangar floor.


Mean As Nails
Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7856617
04/30/23 02:59 PM
04/30/23 02:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
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Osagan Offline
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Osagan  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
Ground rods are copper coated steel. Or Galvanized steel. Never seen one that wasn't. Solid copper rod wound be VERY expensive and would not drive well due to the head mushrooming over. Steel rods mushroom bad enough in rocky ground.

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: white17] #7856632
04/30/23 03:15 PM
04/30/23 03:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
O
Osagan Offline
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Osagan  Offline
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O

Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
Originally Posted by white17
The last couple places I built in the states required two ground rods. I too have used the rebar in a foundation. Just clamp a #4 copper wire to the rebar and bring it out above the surface of the concrete. That;s called a UFER GROUND. Probably the best ground system there is. #4 tied to the rebar system embedded in moist concrete pressing down on the earth, Good ground.

Also built a hangar in which the electrical engineer required three ground rods al connected together.........in the hangar floor.


Re: Do ground rods? [Re: warrior] #7856643
04/30/23 03:37 PM
04/30/23 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
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Osagan Offline
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Osagan  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
Originally Posted by warrior
Could it be that the recommendation is based on the conductivity of materials?

Could someone more in the know chime in on the differences between copper and steel or aluminum in carrying current?


Yes copper is the best there is. It's a good thing it's abundant.

Specific 'K' of copper is around 10.9.
Steel is around 100.
Aluminum is around 17

K= resistance in 1 mil of wire 1' long.
Mil=.001 inch

Best conductor out there is silver with a K of about 9.7
Gold comes in at 14.7. Far less than copper.

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: Osagan] #7856649
04/30/23 03:43 PM
04/30/23 03:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Georgia
Originally Posted by Osagian
Originally Posted by warrior
Could it be that the recommendation is based on the conductivity of materials?

Could someone more in the know chime in on the differences between copper and steel or aluminum in carrying current?


Specific 'K' of copper is around 10.9.
Steel is around 100.
Aluminum is around 17

K= resistance in 1 mil of wire 1' long.
Mil=.001 inch

Best conductor out there is silver with a K of about 9.7
Gold comes in at 14.7. Far less than copper.


All Greek to me but I have heard that silver is the best before.


[Linked Image]
Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7856672
04/30/23 04:27 PM
04/30/23 04:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Surry county, NC
G Hose Offline
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G Hose  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2011
Surry county, NC
I worked with the power company for 5yrs an I only ever seen one solid copper ground rod. The Forman said that was the second one he had seen. He had been there 30 some yrs. I have no idea how old it was but it was 8’ long an it was star shaped instead of round

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7856708
04/30/23 06:00 PM
04/30/23 06:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Lakes Region Indiana
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loosanarrow Offline
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Joined: Mar 2014
Lakes Region Indiana
Residential services in our area require 2 ground rods, one 6 feet out from the other.
We are told the reasons are that it ensures getting at least one rod out from under the drip line of the roof (potential dry spot), and during droughts or dry spells, more contact with the soil makes a better ground - and two are twice as much as one - and would very rarely not be adequate.

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: G Hose] #7856760
04/30/23 07:30 PM
04/30/23 07:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
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Osagan Offline
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Osagan  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2020
Missouri
Originally Posted by G Hose
I worked with the power company for 5yrs an I only ever seen one solid copper ground rod. The Forman said that was the second one he had seen. He had been there 30 some yrs. I have no idea how old it was but it was 8’ long an it was star shaped instead of round


Never seen a copper rod or one star shaped. I can tell you the theory behind it though. For the same size, a star shaped rod would have more surface area to present to the soil hence making it a better conductor.

Talking about the earth as a conductor:
During the Civil War, Lincoln and the War Department could keep up the major battles real time. So, when the Army won or lost a minor or major battle or skirmish Lincoln in Washington knew about it in minutes. Say Picketts Charge, Lincoln knew about it's failure immediately. There was a telegraph group (kind of like our modern day signal corp) that went right along with the Army. When the Army advanced, they advanced. Stringing wire (1) along the way. They strung it on convenient trees if they could, if not they dug in short telegraph poles.
It takes two conductors to complete a circuit. One conductor was the wire on the pole on insulators and the other conductor was the earth. Telegraph of the 1800s and Civil War times was a simple make-break of a circuit so that is all that was needed. One wire on the pole and the Earth.
It was not a safe job either, Behind the line raiders were told to seek out the telegraph group and destroy them if the could. So, just because you were setting on your butt in a little wagon listening to morse didn't mean you were safe.

So, yes, if you can get a rod down to where there where there is moisture the Earth is a very good ground.
Electric fences work on the same principal, one conductor on insulators and the Earth as the other.

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7856770
04/30/23 07:38 PM
04/30/23 07:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
North central Iowa
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Bob_Iowa Offline
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Joined: Jan 2019
North central Iowa
Here the idea of 2 grounding rods is one at the pole and the other at the house so the one at the pole is supposed to help if the power line is struck by lightning, and the one at the house protects it with the safety ground in the outlets connected to that, as far as fencers go the idea is about dry conditions, sheep are the worst with a small hoof and wool, when we had sheep we ran a ground wire from the fencer just below the hot wire and grounded at every corner post and still has trouble with them, with the cows it worked great because they learned fast to not touch the fence.

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7857068
05/01/23 07:09 AM
05/01/23 07:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Greene County,Virginia
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run Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Greene County,Virginia
I have never seen an all copper rod. But I have found a copper clad rod.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Do ground rods? [Re: white17] #7857128
05/01/23 08:55 AM
05/01/23 08:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Nebraska
T
Trapset Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Nebraska
Originally Posted by white17
The last couple places I built in the states required two ground rods. I too have used the rebar in a foundation. Just clamp a #4 copper wire to the rebar and bring it out above the surface of the concrete.

Also built a hangar in which the electrical engineer required three ground rods al connected together.........in the hangar floor.


Did you ground the metal skin of the building to the re-bar or ground the electrical panel to the re-bar?

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: Trapset] #7857266
05/01/23 01:23 PM
05/01/23 01:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by Trapset
Originally Posted by white17
The last couple places I built in the states required two ground rods. I too have used the rebar in a foundation. Just clamp a #4 copper wire to the rebar and bring it out above the surface of the concrete.

Also built a hangar in which the electrical engineer required three ground rods al connected together.........in the hangar floor.


Did you ground the metal skin of the building to the re-bar or ground the electrical panel to the re-bar?



Both. The three rods in the floor were tied to the panel but the building was grounded to the foundation rebar by way of the bolts in the skin. #4 copper from the bolts down to rebar in concrete. Over ten thousand bolts in that building so we had lots to choose from
laugh


Mean As Nails
Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7857273
05/01/23 01:34 PM
05/01/23 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
B61-12 vicinity, MO
T
TreedaBlackdog Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
B61-12 vicinity, MO
silver is better than copper which is better than aluminum which is better than steel. that said - old farmer taught me to ground to a fence t-post. Said if that ground wasnt good and wet - that one tied to the wire fence a half mile way stood a pretty good chance of being better and if it wasnt good - the few hundred posts in between stood a fair chance of getting a decent ground. I learned something from him in that many times we overlook a simple solution for some fancy grounding rod..........

Re: Do ground rods? [Re: 330-Trapper] #7857350
05/01/23 04:12 PM
05/01/23 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Nebraska
T
Trapset Offline
trapper
Trapset  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Jan 2009
Nebraska
Originally Posted by white17
Originally Posted by Trapset


Did you ground the metal skin of the building to the re-bar or ground the electrical panel to the re-bar?



Both. The three rods in the floor were tied to the panel but the building was grounded to the foundation rebar by way of the bolts in the skin. #4 copper from the bolts down to rebar in concrete. Over ten thousand bolts in that building so we had lots to choose from
laugh


Thanks!

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