Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: Posco]
#7982808
10/30/23 08:57 AM
10/30/23 08:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,908 eastern WV
Ridge Runner1960
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,908
eastern WV
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Does anyone know how many AR style rifles are in private hands today? I've read upwards of twenty million. The number seems to be vague but it's likely a good ballpark figure. Google how many AR style rifles have been used in mass shootings and you might come up with ten.
That's literally less than one in one million. Restricting the 999,999 for the 1 seems a tad excessive. Big government types and their enablers want a passive, obedient population with no means of challenging them. Exactly opposite of what our forebears intended.
I think Danny is right. Push is likely going to come to shove. there were 7 million when Obama was elected to term 1, 14 million at re-election, way more now my guess is 30-40 million with all the newer companies climbing on the black rifle bandwagon.
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982811
10/30/23 08:59 AM
10/30/23 08:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150 Tennessee
Scuba1
"color blind Kraut"
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"color blind Kraut"
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
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if they don't perceive Jim as a leftist, it mis be a North Korean site is my guess.
Let's go Brandon
"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982814
10/30/23 09:01 AM
10/30/23 09:01 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966 Central, SD
Law Dog
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966
Central, SD
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Liberals don’t care about facts, logic or the end results they care about a single focused “this is what I feel and want and I want it right now no matter what.” I’d ask those other writers what they think of the new waves of attacks on the first amendment when loons are being put in charge of what’s the “truth” today by a government standard.
Maybe if they understand that view of how the first is being attacked often they could apply that to the second then.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982840
10/30/23 09:26 AM
10/30/23 09:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956 2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
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Attacking "liberals" is not how you win the debate. Simply insulting an opponent is, in fact, the quickest way to lose a debate.
They think, feel, whatever that they are using facts and reason too (not all are facts and not all positions are based on reason).
Fact: Blaine County has never killed anyone using an AR-15/AR-10.
Fact: The psycho in Maine killed 18 people using an AR-10.
Both are equally true facts.
We need a better way of discussing the issue but it's hard because criminals/psychos keep shooting up schools, restaurants, concerts, parades, etc. This gives the gun grabbers more "facts."
We are however likely past persuading anyone and at this point it's about slowing down the inevitable by winning elections. Once the inevitable happens, I expect a conflict.
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982860
10/30/23 09:46 AM
10/30/23 09:46 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,952 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,952
williamsburg ks
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its pointless to argue with people whose fear prevents them from embracing freedoms
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: Blaine County]
#7982861
10/30/23 09:47 AM
10/30/23 09:47 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966 Central, SD
Law Dog
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966
Central, SD
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Attacking "liberals" is not how you win the debate. Simply insulting an opponent is, in fact, the quickest way to lose a debate.
They think, feel, whatever that they are using facts and reason too (not all are facts and not all positions are based on reason).
Fact: Blaine County has never killed anyone using an AR-15/AR-10.
Fact: The psycho in Maine killed 18 people using an AR-10.
Both are equally true facts.
We need a better way of discussing the issue but it's hard because criminals/psychos keep shooting up schools, restaurants, concerts, parades, etc. This gives the gun grabbers more "facts."
We are however likely past persuading anyone and at this point it's about slowing down the inevitable by winning elections. Once the inevitable happens, I expect a conflict.
What side will bring up the fact that the military and law enforcement both were notified of this guy and did nothing what new law will fix that? Asking for a friend. It’s not the facts used often it’s the ones being left out that make it a problem. If you can’t see this your part of the problem maybe what world do you live in?
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: Law Dog]
#7982865
10/30/23 09:54 AM
10/30/23 09:54 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956 2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
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Attacking "liberals" is not how you win the debate. Simply insulting an opponent is, in fact, the quickest way to lose a debate.
They think, feel, whatever that they are using facts and reason too (not all are facts and not all positions are based on reason).
Fact: Blaine County has never killed anyone using an AR-15/AR-10.
Fact: The psycho in Maine killed 18 people using an AR-10.
Both are equally true facts.
We need a better way of discussing the issue but it's hard because criminals/psychos keep shooting up schools, restaurants, concerts, parades, etc. This gives the gun grabbers more "facts."
We are however likely past persuading anyone and at this point it's about slowing down the inevitable by winning elections. Once the inevitable happens, I expect a conflict.
What side will bring up the fact that the military and law enforcement both were notified of this guy and did nothing what new law will fix that? Asking for a friend. It’s not the facts used often it’s the ones being left out that make it a problem. If you can’t see this your part of the problem maybe what world do you live in? I had trouble following your post, but as for your first question: both sides will bring it up. The gun grabbers will use it to support red flag laws and to say that something more than red flag laws (e.g. a ban) is needed. The 2A side will use it to demonstrate the guy was crazy and not representative of 99.9% of gun owners. True. Be careful though, it's potentially a red flag trap.
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982866
10/30/23 09:55 AM
10/30/23 09:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,351 The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane
"HOSS"
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"HOSS"
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,351
The Hill Country of Texas
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James, to me numbers say it all. There are lots of statistics to support our cause. I started following as a young adult, and remember the crime rate against the elderly and women plummeted after FL passed a CC law.
Modern day Chicago is a great example. Guns are hard to come by (supposedly) but the number of murders are shameful. If an anti-2A person brings up the lame idea that the guns come from neighboring areas, I would compare and contrast Chi vs Houston. Populations are similar and of course there are many more legal outlets in Houston. Then you can contrast murder rates. Don't get me wrong, Houston is the sweaty armpit of Texas, but compared to Chicago it is very safe.
“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.” Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982871
10/30/23 10:07 AM
10/30/23 10:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966 Central, SD
Law Dog
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,966
Central, SD
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The issue with red flag laws is there is no real mental health system out there most people are back out in 72 hours with so many broken systems that don’t work gun control will fix nothing we know the current laws are not being followed as it is.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982910
10/30/23 11:06 AM
10/30/23 11:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,356 Northern MN
Osky
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,356
Northern MN
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I’ve never seen a mugshot of just the gun, nor do I know of any gun convicted and spending time in jail or prison.
Osky
"A womans heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth, and I can find no sign on it" Jabless in Minnesota www.SureDockusa.com
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982915
10/30/23 11:14 AM
10/30/23 11:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 548 NY
whartonrattrappe
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 548
NY
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Statistics from the PEW research center PEW research gun statisticsHere's a summation; Of the 48,830 gun related deaths in 2021 3% are listed as other (accidental, police involved) 54% are suicides (26,328) 43% are murders (20,958) of those 20,958 only 3% (838) involved "long guns" rifles, shotguns, AR's. handguns account for nearly 95% (19,910)
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: white marlin]
#7982920
10/30/23 11:21 AM
10/30/23 11:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956 2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
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Attacking "liberals" is not how you win the debate. Simply insulting an opponent is, in fact, the quickest way to lose a debate. why does it work when liberals attack conservatives??? Have those attacks persuaded you? I bet not. Cutting down, name calling, etc. is not how you win a debate. Or an election.
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982921
10/30/23 11:22 AM
10/30/23 11:22 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,217 Armpit, ak
Dirt
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,217
Armpit, ak
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'What Freeman didn’t bring up was the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the government’s Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Nearly two decades ago the Department of Justice funded a study to analyze this very topic, and it concluded that the assault weapon prohibition had “mixed” results.
Researchers noted there was a decline in crimes committed with firearms classified as assault weapons, but noted “the decline in AW use was offset throughout at least the late 1990s by steady or rising use of other guns.”
In other words, there was a decline in crimes committed with firearms that were banned, but the drop was replaced by crimes committed with other types of firearms that were not banned.
While gun violence overall fell in the US during this period—just like many other countries around the world—the decline continued even after the Federal Assault Weapons Ban ended in 2004. Authors of the government-funded study plainly stated “we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence” and any future reduction in gun violence as a result of the ban was likely “to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement.”
If history has taught us anything, it’s that the impulse to use collective force to “do something” in the wake of a tragedy or crisis has created far more problems than it has solved.
“When [crises occur] … governments almost certainly will gain new powers over economic and social affairs,” wrote Higgs. “For those who cherish individual liberty and a free society, the prospect is deeply disheartening.”"
Source: Fee.org
Last edited by Dirt; 10/30/23 11:38 AM.
Who is John Galt?
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: whartonrattrappe]
#7982922
10/30/23 11:22 AM
10/30/23 11:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956 2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,956
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
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Statistics from the PEW research center PEW research gun statisticsHere's a summation; Of the 48,830 gun related deaths in 2021 3% are listed as other (accidental, police involved) 54% are suicides (26,328) 43% are murders (20,958) of those 20,958 only 3% (838) involved "long guns" rifles, shotguns, AR's. handguns account for nearly 95% (19,910) These are useful statistics for the debate. Suicide is tragic, but if they didn't have a firearm they would use a rope.
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: Blaine County]
#7982926
10/30/23 11:32 AM
10/30/23 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,501 central Haudenosaunee, the De...
white marlin
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,501
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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Have those attacks persuaded you? I bet not.
Cutting down, name calling, etc. is not how you win a debate. Or an election. the goal should NOT be to convince an "anti" to become a "pro activist" (i.e. ardent gunowner); but rather to sway the "undecided" in the middle; who are watching the debate. and, you are wrong about not winning elections with negative tactics. Those expensive commercials are so prevalent because they DO work! hey, I WISH "reason" and "logic" worked with the general public. but as my dad used to say "[crap] in one hand and wish on the other, and see which hand gets fuller."
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Re: Wanted: Pro-gun arguments
[Re: James]
#7982951
10/30/23 12:05 PM
10/30/23 12:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,983 rogers city mi.
jeff karsten
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,983
rogers city mi.
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James i'd say with social media nowdays its impossible to get thru to someone with their nose glued to their phone inundated with "Todays" crisis Consider the Abortion war of 2022 voting public didn't care that the Supreme court just moved it from federal to the state level and that was the deciding factor in a lot of voting especially with a catchy phrase to howl out
olden tyred
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