Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983653
10/31/23 08:23 AM
10/31/23 08:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267 Central, SD
Law Dog
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267
Central, SD
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My grandparents grew an organic truck garden in sand in the UP so it showed me with the right soil mixture you can grow about anything. I went with the soil testing route to cut the learning curve by finding the right balance sooner.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983707
10/31/23 09:53 AM
10/31/23 09:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 22,509 St. Louis Co, Mo
BigBob
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 22,509
St. Louis Co, Mo
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Pick your spot and get the soil PH checked. Most wood soil is very acid, Ag Lime and or wood ash will cure that.
Every kid needs a Dog and a Curmudgeon.
Remember Bowe Bergdahl, the traitor.
Beware! Jill Pudlewski, Ron Oates and Keven Begesse are liars and thiefs!
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983739
10/31/23 10:24 AM
10/31/23 10:24 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,290 Oregon
beaverpeeler
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Posts: 12,290
Oregon
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Already sone good info here. To increase organic matter content as quickly as possible you need to grow a lot of biomass. Buckwheat can be a good summer cover crop but I think there are others that actually produce more biomass during the same time period. Sudan grass being one to look at. I would look at mixing species like crimson clover, phacelia and others. Those also help the pollinizers in your area.
My fear of moving stairs is escalating!
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983825
10/31/23 01:17 PM
10/31/23 01:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267 Central, SD
Law Dog
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267
Central, SD
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I loaded the garden lime I had in my shed today to go to MO soon I noticed it had calcium and magnesium ratios in it was that added or just the normal blend when you have any lime? The stuff is the consistency of talc powder almost like dust.
Last edited by Law Dog; 10/31/23 01:23 PM.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983842
10/31/23 01:55 PM
10/31/23 01:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 492 Alabama
KB64
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Posts: 492
Alabama
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Far from an expert but I though dolomitic lime contains magnesium? Yes, dolomitic lime contains magnesium. The 22 and 12% are pretty typical. One thing to remember, Mg raises pH at 1.6 times what calcium does. Calcium improves drainage where magnesium slows permeability. So if you have a sandy soil you want a base saturation Mg around 15-20% and Ca around 60-65%. In heavy clay you want the calcium 65% and higher with Mg around 10-12%.
Last edited by KB64; 10/31/23 01:56 PM.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983860
10/31/23 02:47 PM
10/31/23 02:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,083 Eastern Shore, MD
JoMiBru
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,083
Eastern Shore, MD
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Great information here. As a farmer and deer hunter, some good topics have already been nailed by Gary, treed, and KB.
Soil test is very important, and follow the recommendations. I like a good mix for both soil health and a good food plot. You’ll want a legume , a brassica, and a cereal grain. The legume will fix nitrogen in the soil. The brassica will send a tap root to help with compaction. The cereal grain will provide grazing and take pressure off the legume until they establish.
Legumes- Clover, alfalfa, peas, beans Brassica- radish, turnip, rape, kale Cereal grains- wheat, buckwheat, Oats, rye
In your application, I would use buckwheat, rape ( dwarf Essex) , and frosty Berseem Clover. Mix some daikon radish in there if compaction is a big issue, that’s got a big tap root.
John
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983864
10/31/23 03:02 PM
10/31/23 03:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267 Central, SD
Law Dog
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267
Central, SD
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Far from an expert but I though dolomitic lime contains magnesium? Yes it says lawn and garden lime on the bags but contains magnesium I have 200 pounds of it.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#7983870
10/31/23 03:14 PM
10/31/23 03:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 11,262 Indiana
Providence Farm
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Posts: 11,262
Indiana
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Gary- thanks this is exactly the same application, I have two landing areas that are marginal and I need to improve. With the Buckwheat can I plant it twice in one growing season? My thought process is to terminate it before it seeds out. I plant buckwheat for my bees, I stager plant it every two weeks or so I till another section and plant again. I get blooms the entire Darth that way. Deer hit it , infact my neibors wife asked her husband if I had mowed it off the deer did such a good job on it that time. I had a place with old tractor ruts I tilled a bunch an got it eveled out. I didn't want the bare dirt so planted that spot with buckwheat. It flowers in about 6 weeks. My fields are generally healthy so didn't notice improvements ther but building organic material is always a plus.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8117964
04/08/24 10:46 PM
04/08/24 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307 WI - Wisconsin
AJE
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307
WI - Wisconsin
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I bought this pH tester the other day at Ace. I'm not sure how good it is. They had a moisture meter I thought about buying too but it looked pretty poor quality. With planting season approaching, it might be nice to know soil temperatures too
Last edited by AJE; 04/08/24 10:46 PM.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8118791
04/10/24 08:15 AM
04/10/24 08:15 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,079 Greene County,Virginia
run
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,079
Greene County,Virginia
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I love lime. Just use whatever lime is readily available close to home. Just adding my worthless 2 cents to the pile.
wanna be goat farmer.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8118846
04/10/24 09:48 AM
04/10/24 09:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 253 Georgia
GaTurkeyHunter
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 253
Georgia
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I have completely renewed my pasture and garden.
When I moved to my current place ten years ago, the pastures were grown up almost to my head. It was full of briars, small trees, broomstraw, dogfennel, etc.
I bushhogged the entire piece and had the property limed. I contacted tree servers and took all the woodchips i could get. I let those chips compost for a year or two and began spreading them around thick in rough areas of the property.
I raised chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, etc. in mobile coops and allowed them to work and fertilize the ground. The birds helped out a ton and I could see results quickly.
I also plant crimson clover every fall and don't mow anything until after it has seeded out and died back. I also plant daikon/tillage radish.
I have seen where folks will bring it round bales of hay and lay that thick over rough areas, but my woodchips are free and have worked wonders.
Good luck!
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: GaTurkeyHunter]
#8118893
04/10/24 11:09 AM
04/10/24 11:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,999 MN
Donnersurvivor
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,999
MN
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I have completely renewed my pasture and garden.
When I moved to my current place ten years ago, the pastures were grown up almost to my head. It was full of briars, small trees, broomstraw, dogfennel, etc.
I bushhogged the entire piece and had the property limed. I contacted tree servers and took all the woodchips i could get. I let those chips compost for a year or two and began spreading them around thick in rough areas of the property.
I raised chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, etc. in mobile coops and allowed them to work and fertilize the ground. The birds helped out a ton and I could see results quickly.
I also plant crimson clover every fall and don't mow anything until after it has seeded out and died back. I also plant daikon/tillage radish.
I have seen where folks will bring it round bales of hay and lay that thick over rough areas, but my woodchips are free and have worked wonders.
Good luck! This is more less what I'm doing now to my property. The wood chips really only work if you have Nitrogen, thats where your chickens really paid off. Currently Chicken manure is worth around $50 a Ton and a Ton goes a long ways. If you have any poultry farmers in the area that sell manure that would be my first stop after the soil test. If you put wood chips down without added Nitrogen be prepared for the chips to lock most of your available Nitrogen up until they decompose. I'm going to mix chips with manure, let that compost then spread it.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Donnersurvivor]
#8118906
04/10/24 11:34 AM
04/10/24 11:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,056 East-Central Wisconsin
bblwi
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,056
East-Central Wisconsin
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Do you have a farmer near you with stall barn or bed pack manure. If so and he would be willing to sell it and apply it I would put say 20 to 30 tons per acre on this spring or summer and work it in. If you don't have equipment that can work in that much put less on. You will build OM faster that way and you will get NP and K as well. During the summer the bugs, worms and bacteria will break up the OM when the soil is warm. You can then start with any and all of the crops mentioned. They all build OM but some better than others but I nice load of manure is a good way to kick start your program. Manure is an interesting substance, it losens clay and helps bind sand, you want high levels of OM in your soils as it holds nutrients and also helps hold water.
Bryce
Last edited by bblwi; 04/10/24 03:21 PM.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: bblwi]
#8120696
04/12/24 11:37 PM
04/12/24 11:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307 WI - Wisconsin
AJE
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307
WI - Wisconsin
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I hope your soils are better, here were I live we have a lot of red clay with OM levels less then 2, basically a mineral type soil. Bryce
Not much clay here
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: bblwi]
#8122167
04/15/24 10:37 AM
04/15/24 10:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,079 Greene County,Virginia
run
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 15,079
Greene County,Virginia
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Farmers in WI raise lot of broadleaf plants and spread lots of manure with no broadleaf plant deaths. Yes manure has weeds but there are more weedseeds laying in the foodplot area already so the extras are not going to be a major factor. Also plants like winter rye etc. are weed retardent plants. If manure is not available that is fine, just anticipate building OM with plants with 2-4 ton of dry matter per crop will take a long, long time to raise if OM is low. Also if you plant several crops per year to have divsersity and do tillage, tillage breaks down OM faster and you lose more than if you can no-till. I hope your soils are better, here were I live we have a lot of red clay with OM levels less then 2, basically a mineral type soil. Bryce Thank you for the explanation, Bryce!
Last edited by run; 04/15/24 10:37 AM.
wanna be goat farmer.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8122230
04/15/24 12:24 PM
04/15/24 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,604 MD
DaveP
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,604
MD
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LOL, JUST finished spreading manure, THICK. Have terrible soil here, been working on it 30 years. Best thing I ever did was hogs. Moved pen a little every other year. Went from 1" of soil to 6-10". At least made some decent garden patches. Below is a link to the aptly named Extreme Composting thread. Watched this guy get going in real.time, it's insane. 100s of tons. Per year.... https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/extreme-composting.342651/
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8122238
04/15/24 12:31 PM
04/15/24 12:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,290 Oregon
beaverpeeler
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,290
Oregon
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There is another neat twist to build up garden soil organic matter content and kill pathogens at the same time. It is accomplished by adding a whopping 12" or more of chopped green manure and some nitrogen working it in to the ground, watering and then covering with a thin layer of clear polyplastic sheeting tightly. The soil microbes quickly use up all the oxygen creating an anaerobic condition in the top 8-10" of soil. Over the course of several weeks soil borne pathogens (that may have been a burr under your saddle for years) are reduced to near zero since they cannot survive without oxygen.
You will be amazed at how well all your garden veggies and fruits do after this treatment.
My fear of moving stairs is escalating!
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: beaverpeeler]
#8122310
04/15/24 02:58 PM
04/15/24 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,604 MD
DaveP
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,604
MD
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There is another neat twist to build up garden soil organic matter content and kill pathogens at the same time. It is accomplished by adding a whopping 12" or more of chopped green manure and some nitrogen working it in to the ground, watering and then covering with a thin layer of clear polyplastic sheeting tightly. The soil microbes quickly use up all the oxygen creating an anaerobic condition in the top 8-10" of soil. Over the course of several weeks soil borne pathogens (that may have been a burr under your saddle for years) are reduced to near zero since they cannot survive without oxygen.
You will be amazed at how well all your garden veggies and fruits do after this treatment.
I might have to.look.into this, thanks
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: KB64]
#8218020
09/17/24 08:37 PM
09/17/24 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307 WI - Wisconsin
AJE
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,307
WI - Wisconsin
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Organic matter increases are greatly enhanced by limiting tillage and planting diverse mixes that produce a lot of root mass. Daikon radish, cereal rye and annual clovers are a good fall mix. Vetch is another good additive. Buckwheat is good because it's a short lived annual that can be double cropped. You can mix in grasses like millet or a forage sorghum like Sudan-Sorghum. A lot of people are big into using a crimper to terminate these crops and planting into the residue. Timing is critical..
Make sure it's not invasive vetch. I sprayed the vetch in my ditch tonight. I'm not sure what kind it is but I think I have the bad vetch. I think this is what I have: https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/Invasives/fact/CrownVetch
Last edited by AJE; 09/17/24 08:41 PM.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8218048
09/17/24 09:09 PM
09/17/24 09:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,396 Mt.
g smith
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,396
Mt.
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Some educated folks here ,good stuff .
You can ride a fast horse slow but you can't ride a slow horse fast .
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: AJE]
#8218052
09/17/24 09:13 PM
09/17/24 09:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,944 ohio
Ohio Wolverine
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,944
ohio
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Organic matter increases are greatly enhanced by limiting tillage and planting diverse mixes that produce a lot of root mass. Daikon radish, cereal rye and annual clovers are a good fall mix. Vetch is another good additive. Buckwheat is good because it's a short lived annual that can be double cropped. You can mix in grasses like millet or a forage sorghum like Sudan-Sorghum. A lot of people are big into using a crimper to terminate these crops and planting into the residue. Timing is critical..
Make sure it's not invasive vetch. I sprayed the vetch in my ditch tonight. I'm not sure what kind it is but I think I have the bad vetch. I think this is what I have: https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/Invasives/fact/CrownVetchWhile doing landscaping , one customer wanted Crown Vetch , only time I saw it other than some that grew wild in spots. It was planted above her new pond, as a filter to slow the pond from filling with run off. That was almost 60 years ago, and never knew how it worked , or what it did.
We have met the enemy and the enemy is us!
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8218178
09/18/24 06:34 AM
09/18/24 06:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,592 western mn
bucksnbears
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trapper
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,592
western mn
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Looks like a great combo EE.
swampgas chili and schmidt beer makes for a deadly combo
You have to remember that 1 out of 3 Democratic Voters is just as dumb as the other two.
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8218190
09/18/24 06:53 AM
09/18/24 06:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 896 NE NE
Wife
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trapper
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 896
NE NE
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You got plenty of "advice" on what to plant so I won't add but really if you are interested in increasing soil health and productivity do two things - lose the plow and/or disc - get a shredder to chew up your crop in the spring and rent or buy a drill period!!!!!!. Your crop needs to be laid on the surface for 3-5 years before you see any soil bounce (NO TILLAGE). Deeper root systems will bring what nutrients the soil has up to the surface and eliminating the tillage will slow the decomposition and volatilization of the carbon and nitrogen. Slowly the soil will improve to its max,,,, then you can get an accurate soil test and put and apply any additives you are missing. Get into a rotation and DO NOT BE HESITANT to use a herbicide if needed. I have helped a lot of folks with their CRP food plots (worked 34 years at USDA) and have No-Tilled my gardens for 20 years. Keeping last years crop on the surface and drilling a new - different - crop into the residue will pay dividends down the road. First years are not pretty but the science shows up around year 3-5. Try a grass/legume mix like 2 years of some type of clover and 1 year of corn, or millet, or sorghum, or annual rye etc.,,,,, whatever will work in your growing area. A mineral block from the local farm store will always help too if harvesting a deer or two is the objective. My experience. ...............the mike
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8218194
09/18/24 07:09 AM
09/18/24 07:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267 Central, SD
Law Dog
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 36,267
Central, SD
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The food plots we have been working on in MO have exceeded our expectations for being more gravel than soil, the weekly rains were a big help in its success being the first year. The clover has done well some of the grass has greened up then died off. Getting the soil tested was a big help in meeting the plants needs.
Its definitely a big draw and a needed destination point compared to the past free ranging they did kind of Willy Nilly or heading to other green grass areas off the property. Not a big buck area but it’s drawing in more bucks then we ever had on camera in the past some bigger than before.
Unfortunately the adjoining property sold to a shoot every round, blow up some tannerite and walk through people food plots kind of guy so we will see how that plays out.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: Building Soil
[Re: Eagleye]
#8218414
09/18/24 01:39 PM
09/18/24 01:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,939 WI
WIMarshRAT
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,939
WI
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Christine Jones did a youtube video on building soil and soil health. It is one of my favorites. It talks about the liquid carbon pathway being 30 times faster than the above ground biomass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_w_Gp1mLMI followed her process when I wanted to build some soil in a spot that had all the top soil striped off for a subdivision. It was a failed tree planting due to the nutrient depleted soil. I used a bunch of annuals and killed before they moved into their reproductive stage. Terminate when still in veg. stage and plant a bunch more plants from different plant groups. When in veg state, the plant is pumping maximum amounts of carbon and sugars into the soil. When it moves to reproductive stage, it's focus is on bring up into the plant. Be careful with too many legumes in mix as it can be hard on soil structure/soil aggregates. The deeper you can get your soil aggregation, the more productive your soil will be and the more desirable the crop you can grow for the critters. It allows the roots to get deeper into the soil profile for important minerals and nutrients. Its why you can plant a bunch of oak seedlings, but the deer will walk past them to eat every sucker off a cut stump. Those stump sprouts will be way more dense with minerals and nutrients because the roots are deep within the ground.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...it's about learning to dance in the rain!
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