I’ve had more pullouts with mb650’s than all other traps combined. When I first got them I lost cats that hit the end of chain and tracks were 4 feet away were landed You could see it all in snow. I lost coyotes too and figured the 1/4 “ offset was why so I took the offset down to 3/16 I still have pullouts. 2 wolves and 1 coyote in 2 days this winter. . All in snow foot hair in trap and not in trap long enough to make any torn up ground. Talked to Minnesota trapline about it he didn’t have any answers. After talking to him had bobcat walk up to dirt hole made day before. Set was rock solid 3 lbs pan tension waxed dirt. 1 “ fresh snow after set made tracks went right to trap cat got caught pulled trap to end of 12” chain and pulled out. I just don’t get it. Have 18 of them and plan on selling them , any ideas as to why.

Wire levers = Poor, spongy lock up.

I'm kinda stumped, Ive used them for years and pull outs are practically non existent for me...cant even remember the last time it happened..sorry

Seems strange that many pullouts. Too much wax on jaw faces ?

They are inside outside laminated if that makes a difference. I have mostly used #2 Montgomery doggless since the mid 70’s and rarely an empty trap. Caught my first wolf in a Montgomery 2 his foot filled entire trap and he was going nowhere. Had wolves pull jaws right out of the Montgomery 3’s they bent the base plate Abandoned those threes for years thinking they were junk and almost gave 2 dozen away. Glad I didn’t as I’m baseplating and laminating them now and put new stronger springs on them and now they are a super trap. Modifying 68 old Montgomery and put posi trip pans I got from Ed on 2 dozen Nothwoods #3 plus bought 3 dozen Duke 650’s and 16 550’s. Mostly retired now and planning setting ou 160 traps next fall after waiting 40 years to do it. Strictly going after deer killers only wish there was some money it. Won’t cost me a dime in gas though because I’ll be road hunting grouse and all the gas will go tor that 😄

I use mb-650 ILOL, (my preferred trap) for: coyotes and cats, the occasional red fox and wolves that can't resist stepping in them except in higher potential theft areas. I use 650s because of the snow. Can't recall the last time I had a pullout. I paint mine, but shouldn't make a difference. 27" of #3 chain with 4 swivels and T. C. Conner shock springs attache to all manner of anchors and drags. But on 12" of chain springs aren't needed, swivels still are.

Levers freezing to the ground slowing the trap down, not getting a full pad catch, maybe??? I bed mine with waxed paper, covering and below the trap.

That's all I got for you!
DM if you lose confidence in them.

I guess I’ll keep trying them Maybe I just had a twighlight zone like run with them. I took a 1”x 2” board and put it on the edge of jaw and every way an animal could step on trap including if one foot was on jaw and getting thrown out and every time trap snapped the board was caught fully and high. That test really baffled me as to why my missis

Set it off with 4 fingers and see if you can pull out of it. If you can, replace the traps. If you can’t, then some sort of operator error.

Make sure to video it in slow motion too for a better understanding.

And then post the video here so we can critique it and give helpful tips.

I have some cast jawed 650s, some outside laminated, a couple inside laminated, and even an unlaminated (never caught anything in it, hasn't been set but once, always planning to laminate it), everything but your IL/OL and haven't had a problem. Those laminations on both sides make a lot of jaw face to come up through any crust, which may be slowing it. I don't like the trigger system on the MB650s, but they are a stout trap that in my experience will hold about anything that steps in them except hooves.

I'm with the OP. I've had more toe catches and pull outs with 650s than any other trap. Two things that help tremendously: make sure you're using enough pan tension, and ditch the pan covers if you're using them. Use poly fill instead. I use pan covers on other traps but for some reason pan covers and 650s do not work for me. I don't know if they increase the kill area too much or what.

If you are going to venture down this path, wear a heavy leather glove.

Here is a crazy opinion of animal anatomy/morphology that I observed in my travels. When I lived in central/northern Minnesota I examined a lot of the coyotes and fox I and others caught. There was 1 thing that stood out and stuck in my brain with these harvested critters and in the tracking I did. Their feet were covered with much more fur than the coyotes I caught and catch in Nebraska and Iowa and the few fox i caught in southern Mich. Huh? Noted that the BOTTOM of the foot was almost totally covered with hair/fur in the winter,,, so much so that the fur between and over the toes made it look like they were walking on snowshoes. Showed up even in the tracks (in the snow) when I looked, as the pad and lobes were nowhere near as discernable as they are in the ones from a warmer area. I have NO DATA saying this extra foot covering would - could - or should increase a slippery surface for a steel trap jaw but it is an observation I noted. Take it for what its worth. Now if you watch canines getting caught in a jaw trap you will notice AT LEAST 2-3 terrific initial lunges to the end of the anchor point to escape. Force equals mass times acceleration .........(F=ma) from anchor point to the de-accelerated point - distance traveled . Or bluntly, the chain, trap and animal leg must absorb the force exerted by that lunge when it stops. One of the things I use to minimize this shock (F) is using a log drag (or here in Nebraska, an 8" diam. wood fence post). This allows the trap to "set" and swelling under the jaws to start, by slowing the de-acceleration for less total Force - when the animal finally slows/stops. I know nothing of wolves but have tethered enough coyotes and watched them on the cams to see a benefit to adding some non anchored weight to slow that initial Force to the situation. I believe it treats the coyote better too if you have a longer than 24 hr check requirement. You won't be able to set 30 of these out in a day if trying to get a lot of sites set . But in snowy conditions I have the posts sitting and waiting at a pre-picked spot so I connect the the trap and finish the set. My experience. ....................the mike

Slick idea with the post Mike....drags with long chains MIGHT produce the same results? In my mind, even a longer chain like 3 ft.+ as the animal would jump after being captured and run out chain due to the longer length and... again?? I have used these traps since they first came out; in fact Tim C. sent me some to try out the first year. These were the regular offset jaw... no lam.s and obviously no cast jaw at that time. At the time the Sterling MJ 600 traps were hard to find. after using the 650s I found that they produced some catches that I had never experienced before due to the strong springs and wire levers. I really liked them and have continued to use them today..they are one of my go to traps. it takes a while of hard use to get to know the pan and notch adjustment but like another traps the longer you use them the more you know what is required to keep that tool working up to its potential. Great trap in my opinion.

I disassembled the trigger and added the small washer to the trigger rod as other fellows suggested to even out the pressure and travel on the pan....I like the 650 more now (if I remember to bring my setters LOL). I also use the large dia. split ring on the end of 8' of chain and slip the chain THROUGH the ring around the fence post drag (NOT INTO THE SPLIT) for a pull tight cinch. Easy hook up, Easy trap pull. The split ring (even the cheap ones) seem to hold as the force is partially absorbed by the chain as it goes around the post and is not totally on the ring. My experience.............. the mike

Mike, do you have a pic of the washer deal?

I don't take any credit for the washer on the 650. I heard of it before but 1st saw it on the Seldom Fails web Tube. It works as a bushing to keep the rod snug and provides a more even surface for the rod lever to rotate on. The post hookup I have used ever since the split ring came out and I will punch 2 nails preseason on either side of of where I am going to cinch it. Probably "old hat" to some but works for frozen ground with NO stake pounding. ............................... the mike

Can't get the post hookup to load - too many bites.............. the mike

Thanks Mike.

I don’t know about Mike and Mike but I’ve used the 650’s fully laminated and use 4# of pan tension +, without worrying. I used to think 5# might be a little much but after seeing Mr. Sterlings last demo I would not be afraid to go 6 or even 8# of pan tension. Glen stated that he was trying to catch a Mt. lion and was running 16 or 17# of tension and they were still catching coyotes . I can’t attest to that but can say I run a strong 4# of tension and always have a full foot in the trap in most cases. That being said , this would be your simplest solution.

Next if you don’t mind adding some chain 24” ,if I remember right ( maybe 28” ) , this will give your trap more time to lock up . After talking to Ed Medvets he claims if your not running a heavy pan , and use a short chain and don’t use shock springs , that most any animal has such a quick reaction to the trap firing that it can pull out almost instantly.

For me it was a no brainer, add pan tension. On a trap like a 650 with four coils , even with both laminations they come out of the ground pretty quick. On my old #4 long springs that are slower I added both chain and one of Ed’s shock springs. I have been modifying these traps over time and giving them some much needed pan tension. With Ed’s springs they now have 4 swivels and about 32” of chain.

These days the only pullouts I have are my cast jawed 550’s that only have 2 1/2# of pan tension, “ I’m working on that “ .

I’ve always used short 8-10” chains figuring preventing hard lunge would prevent pull outs and in other traps mostly Montgomery # 2 I have had very few pull outs Maybe longer chain would help the 650 with those super wide jaws