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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #8157996
06/20/24 12:35 PM
06/20/24 12:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Was thinking about this while looking at building the wife a home defense gun. Probably just gonna go with a shotgun. 20ga pump , add a light ,mabye a laser , keep it simple for her.Gonna be buying factory home defense ammo and stuff but again just a thought.

One of the big talking points with home defense and using a rifle is over penetration,though walls and stuff possibly hitting your kid or something.... Well one of the big things about varmint bullets like VMAX's is they very rarely exist.... Just dump all their energy and explode in the target....

So aside from people who might be wearing body armor ( even then taking one pretty close will knock the wind outta someone) seems like a varmit bullet could be a decent home defense option as far as rifles go...at least in my head .. 110 vmax out of a .300blk seems like a nasty lil deal..... Thoughts ?



LE has a different name for 55gr 5.56 V-max it is called T.A.P urban (tactical application police ) the urban is of course meant to not punch every trailer in the trailer park/apartment building that is what our local department uses and the reasoning
if you have to use your rifle here it is most likely your serving a warrant or responding to active shooter.
in either case the department went with caution because warrants are 50% of the time at the trailer park it is by far the most densely populated part of town.

of course anything that works decent will punch at least one wall the idea is the pieces don't aren't lethal when they punch the second wall if they do make it through.

the 110v-max will go into a sheep's or deer's neck and not come out the other side in my testing , but it is very much dead.

if they are wearing body armor then they probably thought a lot more ahead , if they thought to wear better than level 3A which 223 will punch right through, then they are a very special criminal indeed.

run her on Bill Drills and failure to stop drills if your that worried about it.
body armor doesn't typically cover all of a bad guy. Ok unless they set out to rob a bank in Hollywood but probably low risk of that in 110 degree heat and 100000000% humidity




Ahhhh here we go. Not wats interesting becti was talking to a guy a while back and he mentioned how alot of bullets being sold on one side of the board are sold as someone else on the other for a different thing...think the conversation was on the ELD's for hunting vs LEO use ...

Anyhow , yes the lack of exit or over penetration has always been the big thing when I really look into home defense. Also having something that causes a lot of damage. That's why I've been. A bit confused when you have something like a vmax that in my opinion fills in all them gaps. Not to mention,that average robber isnt as resilient as a deer ...heck probably not even a coyote so. I honestly don't think you need to get as crazy as some of the Lehigh defense stuff. Like don't get me wrong that stuff is INSANE! But after looking at how most people act act getting hit with just a regular old HP or something.....egh... You know what I'm saying

And as far as body armor..... That's honestly not much of a concern for me around here when most of these lil hoodlums


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: KeithC] #8157998
06/20/24 12:38 PM
06/20/24 12:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KeithC
I know you had dogs at your parent's place. If you don't have dogs at your current place together, I suggest getting 2 protective dogs. Even with a gun, without warning that someone is approaching, a gun is pretty useless, unless you have it on you or very readily at hand. Most people fear an aggressive dog. Criminals are more deterred from breaking into a home by the presence of dogs, than even alarms.

Bird shot is safest to use if you are worried about wall penetration.

Hopefully your wife will never have to use the gun to defend herself, but it is best to be prepared.

Somebody breaking into our home, would be unlikely to survive the process intact, because of our dogs.

Keith


Never not had a dog for more then a week or two. Eveyone down here has a dog as an alarms system if nothing else.
Burr here does a good job
[Linked Image]


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Lugnut] #8158000
06/20/24 12:42 PM
06/20/24 12:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
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Originally Posted by Lugnut
I keep an AR-15 handy that is loaded with .223 55 grain V-Max. I shoot way more chicken-eating fox and garden-wrecking groundhogs with it than people. But it would probably be what I grabbed if the SHTF.


Yeah I need to get to build her a lil homestead deal like that. Especially since she enjoys shooting and where gonna be getting into quail chicken and rabbits. That and she's been getting more and more into the idea of hunting


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Marty] #8158001
06/20/24 12:43 PM
06/20/24 12:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Marty
always identify your target and what is beyond it..... smile

Hence why she's getting a light, don't help she's blind as a bat without her glasses or contacts


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158002
06/20/24 12:44 PM
06/20/24 12:44 PM
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North East Kansas
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if your worried about pass thru's and body armor you should follow the advice of professionals....in a situation where body armor or background is/can be an issue shoot for the pelvis/at a downward angle. Blow out a knee with a shotgun and a person can not longer move not matter what. Killing someone can have serious effects on a person...

has your wife had good, solid self defense with a firearm training? have you?


Rise and Rise Again
Until Lambs Become Lions
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Marty] #8158004
06/20/24 12:53 PM
06/20/24 12:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Marty
if your worried about pass thru's and body armor you should follow the advice of professionals....in a situation where body armor or background is/can be an issue shoot for the pelvis/at a downward angle. Blow out a knee with a shotgun and a person can not longer move not matter what. Killing someone can have serious effects on a person...

has your wife had good, solid self defense with a firearm training? have you?


Like I said in some other posts here , body armor isn't really a concern at all. Y'all don't understand how ignorant most criminals are now days when it comes to anything past a Glock 9 mino Draco or FN5.7. funny enough a while back there was a big fuss because guys where buying "bullet proof vests" and still getting shot up after dropping $1500 on these things....end up they where buying over sized plate carriers with now plates that hand been Gucci'ed up with labels and designs and stuff ... idiots....

Anyhow , I'm honestly not super worried and she's not really either but we both are looking at going to some classes. One of the churches in the county over offer firearms training on everything from basic pistol, long range, defensive shooting and concealed carry. From eveyone I e talked to about them their really down to earth and not a lot of the other the top crap


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wanna Be] #8158009
06/20/24 01:01 PM
06/20/24 01:01 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by Wanna Be
These threads are always funny to me for some reason.


funny in that I feel like some are repeating things they heard or things they think without testing them.

you bring up some valid points
and some interesting ones
a plan and practice is much more important than all the untrained hardware in the world.
not a lot of wives and families want to have to think about it much less train it , makes it too real.
how much training you can get in will vary , I wish I could say my wife was some sort of operator and enjoyed training. that isn't the case she can shoot a handgun on a paper target fine but it isn't something he is into. didn't like shotguns at all.

I would say my plan is not to go all john wick but to secure the stair well that is it.
my entire family is 2nd floor and I am not. My son would be useful but almost impossible to wake.

I would much rather not fire a shot and hopefully the dogs will handle the announcing.

the sound of letting off a round in an enclosed space is absolutely deafening and distracting , so it takes focus.
but also not something you want to go testing a bunch because it easily causes hearing damage.

multiple projectile loads are not spread out enough to much matter at 3 yards which is why they work but still shoot like a single projectile , a big one but single.
TSS isn't lead and can you afford to practice with it. TSS is even tighter patterned than lead it is a single projectile for the purposes of aiming. it would be very interesting to see what it does on walls I expect it acts a lot more like #4 buck than bird shot.
but it isn't something I have tested.

room clearing is a team activity , if you didn't bring your team avoid it. even if you brought a team try and avoid it. this isn't TV.

lead shot on raccoons at 10 yards , 12ga , 20ga , 4,5,6, 7.5 it didn't really change much
I am in the neighborhood of 85 raccoon this year with zero fur value taken from buildings.
so loads get tested , raccoon don't lie they don't know how
some are me running them out of a building , I wanted to know what worked could I use shot and effectively stop them with very low risk of ricochet and damaging a building, the shooting is typically at the ground.
I am back to a 22 and very carefully picking shots , it also is easier on the ears.
I do wear electronic hearing protection with individual ear microphones any time I remember to grab them from the truck.

should getting a suppressor be like buying a barrel , yes , is it , no so few people have them,
if you can't have a suppressor but want something for training and if you have time to use it , electronic ears are good left hanging already set to your head only take a second to pop on , if you don't have time you don't have time, leave them hanging.

I claim no mastery in anything tactical I would say anything you think to be true , think about the best way to test it and test it for yourself , we learn all the time that hypotheses are wrong and anything you saw on TV is generally wrong.

make yourself the best shot with everything you reasonably can be , shooting fundamentals transfer to lots of disciplines.

more ammo is better until it becomes to much weight or effect handling
19-21round mag in a full size pistol great , 33 round mag in a pistol effects handling.

Lights , I am a believer in weapon mounted lights , ID is hugely important.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #8158013
06/20/24 01:13 PM
06/20/24 01:13 PM
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North East Kansas
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Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE





Lights , I am a believer in weapon mounted lights , ID is hugely important.



smile


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Until Lambs Become Lions
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158014
06/20/24 01:15 PM
06/20/24 01:15 PM
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Green County Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by Lugnut
I keep an AR-15 handy that is loaded with .223 55 grain V-Max. I shoot way more chicken-eating fox and garden-wrecking groundhogs with it than people. But it would probably be what I grabbed if the SHTF.


Yeah I need to get to build her a lil homestead deal like that. Especially since she enjoys shooting and where gonna be getting into quail chicken and rabbits. That and she's been getting more and more into the idea of hunting



I agree with lugnut what you use the most being the best thing to use in a high stress time.

this is why for a lot of people the answer is a shotgun , they are not wrong , it is just not the right answer for everyone.
shotguns are harder to train , greater recoil and less capacity and harder to reload.
but if you have a hundred hours a year carrying and using a shotgun , it can be the best option for you.

she already had a AR in 22lr so keeping the same platform more power is a good plan.
that AR-22 might serve well for a lot of the around the homestead tasks as well.
22lr is very useful but also limited.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158017
06/20/24 01:20 PM
06/20/24 01:20 PM
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I quit using vmax on coyotes. Not reliable. May not penetrate heavy clothing. If you choose a varmint round pay the extra couple bucks for nosler ballistic tips.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158031
06/20/24 01:51 PM
06/20/24 01:51 PM
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I think the only wrong answer is not asking the question or testing it for yourself the best way you can.

designer bullets sound great but , decent bullets well practiced beat designer bullets in my opinion.

so find what works on coyotes and ground hogs , maybe hogs that you can afford to shoot regular then shoot those.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158041
06/20/24 02:14 PM
06/20/24 02:14 PM
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All home defense guns need to have lights on them period. Identify the target. Just because one of your loved ones is not expected to be there does not mean they may not be home unexpectedly. I read about a guy that (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) a home intruder dead in his kitchen. Turned the light on to find out his son came home from college early and didn't call and let him know. The man killed his son. Just one example of why they should have a light

Varmint bullets are what I shoot in my Ar's looks like a hand grenade went off inside often zero exit on big things . If hit in an arm the arm would be hanging by skin if it hit bone. And in a rifle would be my choice.

Shotguns in 20g 4 buck, 12g 00 buck. I prefer long guns over handguns and handguns over no gun.

Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158046
06/20/24 02:24 PM
06/20/24 02:24 PM
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Get her a pistol over any long gun.


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: hippie] #8158056
06/20/24 02:40 PM
06/20/24 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hippie
Get her a pistol over any long gun.

Why


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158062
06/20/24 02:48 PM
06/20/24 02:48 PM
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Perp makes it in undetected is on top of her before she wakes up.
Can she reach for a long gun one handed and stick it in his ribs?
Even if she awakes and he's several feet away, a long gun gives him something to reach for and the muzzle is easily pushed aside.

Think this thru, in a confined area as in "home defence", a pistol shines.


Last edited by hippie; 06/20/24 02:49 PM.

There comes a point liberalism has gone too far, we're past that point.
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158065
06/20/24 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by hippie
Get her a pistol over any long gun.

Why

I also have to ask why

big win on portability and one handed operation , ability to open and close doors ect.

not so much on shoot-ability and power

you carry a handgun to have it on you all the time not because it is the most powerful ,accurate, shoot-able thing

not saying your wrong , asking the logic why you feel that is the best choice I can think of several benefits of handgun over long gun, portability being related to most of them.


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: hippie] #8158066
06/20/24 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hippie
Perp makes it in undetected is on top of her before she wakes up.
Can she reach for a long gun one handed and stick it in his ribs?
Even if she awakes and he's several feet away, a long gun gives him something to reach for and the muzzle is easily pushed aside.

Think this thru, in a confined area as in "home defence", a pistol shines.



good explanation

confined spaces

so then would a combo long and short make the most sense ?
the daily garden pest gun and the daily carry


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Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158068
06/20/24 03:02 PM
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But!

Nothing says ya can't have both! laugh


There comes a point liberalism has gone too far, we're past that point.
Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158073
06/20/24 03:08 PM
06/20/24 03:08 PM
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Wolfdog91 doesn't have any cubs of his own yet, so having multiple, loaded firearms distributed in his home is not a problem, unless his nephew or other kids come for a visit.

Keith

Re: Varmint bullets for home defense [Re: Wolfdog91] #8158079
06/20/24 03:14 PM
06/20/24 03:14 PM
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See my thing is , I really just don't see that as much of a actual possibility. My house is pretty big, all the doors have multiple locks , windows all have either locks or ACs in them with another lil dealthat make sit a pain to get out. Then you have to open multiple door to get anywhere ,all of which I leave purposely creeky. All the rooms are pretty decent size meaning you have about 10' front he door to the bed usually. No to mention loud as all get out dog who loosing it at anything and the long hallway you have to go down if your coming in 2 outta three doors...not to mention she's a family light sleeper. All that on top of the fact my p320 9mm is usually within arms reach. Basically if you dumb enough to try and get in my house your gonna wake us up.....not to mention I may or may not have the furniture and certain rooms moved around so it's basically killzones .
Now all that's home invasion type stuff.
As far as her hair out and about and somone tries grabbing her , well that's actually happened to her before and yeah steps have been taken


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