and for good measure some Matthew 12:

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

Yes, one when we die and one final judgment. Still only one second coming.

What scripture and what is the correct meaning then? Not too secret is it if you know it could be coming?
[/quote]
Secret meaning a "Left behind" series scenario, where believers go " poof" and dissappear. Most people get the rapture from Thessalonians 4, but it's actually about the final judgment.

1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Ok, now the supposed rapture verse:
1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."

Pretty obvious this is all one event, happening at his return.

Trapper7,
You mentioned the abomination of desolation being the antichrist.
In Luke's parallel verses, Luke 21:20 it appears that when jerusalem is compassed with armies was his description
Of the abomination of desolation. Jesus did say to the Apostles that Not one stone of the temple will not be left standing. He also said in verse 34 that this generation shall not pass, till all there things be fulfilled.

Also after the desolation verse in Luke 21:20
Vs 22 he mentions judgment =vengeance.
The generation he is speaking to is surly the same generation he is warning of coming judgment in Matthew 23:33-36

Does this really seem like Jesus is speaking of anything other that the 70 ad distruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

I’m not sure where I read it, but it was about the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled by JESUS.
There are over 300 known prophecies( probably more yet to be discovered)that were fulfilled .
The institute of science and mathematics ( yes it is a real place) decided to tackle this.
The odds of 1 man fulfilling just 8 of them were 1 in a quintillion.
To help understand these odds.. take a stack of quarters about 18 inches tall.. and place a stack in every 2 inches in Texas… now, pull one quarter out of all those stacks.
JESUS fulfilled over 300.
Here’s another thought…JESUS appeared to over 500 eye witness after his resurrection, yet, it’s dismissed.
But ceasr was stabbed in the back supposedly by Brutus and is considered as a fact, yet, there were no witnesses.

Good evidence for the reliability of the Bible right there foxkidd44.

Wow how misinformed
check the facts the real truth not what some preacher said
we didn't even have what we call the bible till the 4th century
what did the world do before that
if one part is made up why can't it all be.
judges 15
samson went out and caught (three hundred fox), tied their tails
together in pairs and lashed a torch between each pair of tails
to spread fire in the philistine's crops
yeah, sure he did.
how long would it take to catch 300 fox
probably have to have pens to put them in and feed and water too.
is this a true story

I'm right about where Wildlifeartist is on all of the bible stuff. I'm a pretty decent BS'er but those boys had me beat hands down.

BP, I'm confident that if you had 2000 years you could come up with some whoppers lol.
Just funin.

In all seriousness, the story of Samson and the foxes seems more like folklore.
We realy don't know if Samson had super powers and I'm not sure if the story of Samson is a prophetic story.
I believe Samson was a Nazarite which I believe that they were not allowed to cut there hair.
Maybe this was a precursor of Jesus the Nazarite who had super natural power.
I do know of one trapper who cought 400 fox in 20 days and 500 in 30.
Maybe some of you have heard of him. His name is Ogorman.
When i see the pyramids I have a hard time believing that they could have been built without some sort of super natural power, but they exist. Over 5000 pieces of evidence that are over 90 % in agreement is pretty compelling evidence of the accuracy of scripture. Try and make that happen through the grapevine. and see what the accuracy is.
Take it as you will. I'm glad we have free will and are not forced what to believe or think.

Trapper7.......once again....you stated someone was recently making fake fossils and having them dated millions of years old. I cant find that post now but I am interested in reading about it. can you direct me to that source? And how can a flood kill sea dwelling animals? I believe the opposite to be true, drought would almost have to happen for them to die and be fossilized. And why does it have to always be Noahs flood, Im sure there were many back then and earlier just as is happening now? If the earth was once water covered, how could it flood?

Trapper7.......once again....you stated someone was recently making fake fossils and having them dated millions of years old. I cant find that post now but I am interested in reading about it. can you direct me to that source? And how can a flood kill sea dwelling animals? I believe the opposite to be true, drought would almost have to happen for them to die and be fossilized. And why does it have to always be Noahs flood, Im sure there were many back then and earlier just as is happening now? If the earth was once water covered, how could it flood?[/quote]

I will tackle some of this. I too have read and watched as carbon dating of new materials comes back millions of years old. With heat and pressure and flooding - materials can be changed and scientific samples taken and examined and random dates assigned according to interpretation. Flood could easily kill sea animals by dilution of needed materials in the sea. Don't believe me - get a salt water aquarium, buy a bunch of expensive salt water fish and fill it with fresh water.
Show me one example of a flood before Noah or I will simplify it for you - show me one example of a rain before then. And again - show me where the Earth was ever covered by water before the flood.

Again, many people simply can't believe what the Bible says and don't even truly know it enough to know what it says. Quit assuming things and research them. It is ok to question things but we should all try to use critical thinking skills and learn. My faith has led me to many, many questions I have researched and experienced for myself. I have learned to believe and trust in Jesus and the Word.

Brandon Lake has a song out called - Too Good to Not believe. I agree with him. When you begin to seek God and desire to know Him you will learn more and more. If you continue to doubt and not believe and try to use our limited minds you can stay stuck in unbelief. That is the wonderful thing about salvation being a gift and something WE can not do for ourselves. There is only one requirement to be saved by grace - to be a sinner. We all qualify. We all deserve death as there is not a single one of us without sin - we all know we have done wrong. But we have hope. His name is Jesus. He paid the price for our sins so that we can choose life eternal with Him or eternal damnation by continuing on in our unbelief. When we begin to understand, we won't ever be able to fully understand, then we have faith. When our faith is in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and we begin to realize what He did and what authors and witnesses testified about His life and hundreds of years before His birth - we begin to understand the reliability of the Bible. I believe in the reliability of the Bible because I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I know who I am in Christ. I know I was dead and now I am alive.

You asked what they used before the forth century...the writings of the apostles that became the Bible, along with the Torah. Isaiah alone is enough to convince me it's true. Dated long before Christ, it predicted his existence and death. Samson killed a lion with his hands too. He wasn't an ordinary man when God empowered him.

We just spent a year and half on Isaiah and i agree with it alone and my life experiences it would be enough to convince me. Too many prophetic words fulfilled in it alone by Jesus.

I will tackle some of this. I too have read and watched as carbon dating of new materials comes back millions of years old. With heat and pressure and flooding - materials can be changed and scientific samples taken and examined and random dates assigned according to interpretation. Flood could easily kill sea animals by dilution of needed materials in the sea. Don't believe me - get a salt water aquarium, buy a bunch of expensive salt water fish and fill it with fresh water.
Show me one example of a flood before Noah or I will simplify it for you - show me one example of a rain before then. And again - show me where the Earth was ever covered by water before the flood.

Again, many people simply can't believe what the Bible says and don't even truly know it enough to know what it says. Quit assuming things and research them. It is ok to question things but we should all try to use critical thinking skills and learn. My faith has led me to many, many questions I have researched and experienced for myself. I have learned to believe and trust in Jesus and the Word.
[/quote]
First of all, I don't remember saying someone was making fake fossils and having them dated millions of years old. But, I can see where shysters might do something like that to make a buck. I made mention that we found sea shells on a mountain in CO while elk hunting there. If tectonic plates made the sea high and dry, sea dwelling animals would perish.

In Genesis chapter 1, it clearly says the earth was formless and void and God made the waters recede and the land became visible. This would have been before the flood of Noah. You don't have to research that, it's a fact. Some bible scholars say there could have been many floods prior to Genesis 1. I don't know if there was or not, but the earth was flooded prior to the flood of Noah. That's just common sense.

I think it does. It definitely predicts his return in both gospels. The generation he refers to is the generation at that future time, not the generation alive when he spoke these words.

2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is talking about the return of Jesus. He is referring to the anti-christ who is revealed as a man who exalts himself above God as he takes his seat in the temple displaying himself as being God.

I agree, a flood could possibly kill sea creatures, a drought would be more likely. I try to use critical thinking like science. Im pretty sure it was you that made that post but it doesnt matter now, it is gone- I cant find it. They were fossils already when the tektonic plates pushed them up to the top of the mountain. You say the earth was flooded prior to the flood of Noah, How is that common sense and where did the extra water come from?

He was talking to that generation. Otherwise what good is fleeing to the mountains? You can't escape from God's final judgment, but you might be able to hide from an army. Yes, the destruction of Jerusalem was God's judgment on the unbelieving Jews. It changed everything for them. No more sacrificial system (Christ was the last sacrifice.) The temple desecration and destruction. Even the part about scorging prophets in the synagogue. Sounds familiar because Paul and others were beaten and scouged by the Jews. All this happened in the first century.

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." I don't know how he could have made it any plainer, but for some reason people want to move all this into the future and applaud for Israel the nation instead of Jesus.

In Genesis chapter 1, it clearly says the earth was formless and void and God made the waters recede and the land became visible. - quote from Trapper7

I agree with the earth as formless and void and waters being present as the Spirit of the Lord moved on them. I read again and see a firmament or vault then being created (heaven). Waters were then split above and below heaven (Day2) On day 3 waters below the firmament were gathered together and dry earth or land was formed. I disagree water receded and it became visible - it had not been formed or created. The earth was without form........it is difficult to comprehend but we all need to slow down and learn what the Bible says, not what we think we know. I myself just learned again on day 3 with the land formed, then plants and grass were created - a full day before the sun. Wonder how they functioned without photosynthesis...........I can't explain it but believe it.