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Since the Cane and Abel thread sort of shifted gears and was leaning towards who the sons of God in Genesis are I just thought I'd start a new post on this subject. Normally I wait for responses before I coment. But since there has already been a dialect on this I'll start. There seems to be two dominant views of who the son's of God are. One is that they are of the lineage of Seth.( the beginning of men to call upon the name of the Lord. Gen4:26 ) And that the daughters of men are of the lineage of Cain. ( I have gotten a man from the Lord. Gen4:1). The 2nd popular view is that the sons of God are fallen angels. Some of the support for this is from the sons of God mentioned in the book of Job. The Bible does not tell specifically who they are in either case. There is another view and this in the one that I lean toward. This is the spiritual view. Meaning. The sons of God being those that walk with God. Example ( Gen6:8 There are the generation's of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generation's, and Noah walked with God.) And the daughters of Men. ( of Godless Men) Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. My understanding is that the Giants in Genesis are the result of the yolking of God fearing Men of faith with a spouse that han been raised in idolatry. This of course being the same with the reverse of genders. Meaning the wife being God fearing and the husband being a non believer. Look at our world leaders and spiritual leaders of today's. The more popular and the more powerful and ( Giant they become. )( for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12 ) sorry about the long intro. Carry-on.
Evening to you Chancey, Good food, Genesis 6:4 derives from the same root word as mighty men In 2 Sam 23:8. Speaking of men who followed and defended king David. Warriors strong men of great stature. Strongs concordance. Hebrew section # 1368
The Hebrew word for Sons of God is Bene Elohim. In the OT, this always refers to angels. Direct creations of Yahweh. And yes, there is a very distinct difference between fallen angels and demons.
I take the Bible very literally. Yes, I know that there is allegory and also symbology, but sometimes it just says what it says.
Biologically, often when two different species cross, they produce hybrids of large size. Doesn't happen often in nature as God has made a mechanism to help prevent it. It does happen though when humans gets involved. Thus we get tigons, ligers, mammoth mules, etc. If the Sethite view is correct, then why did God kill all the Sethites along with the Cainites in the flood? Why did he destroy ALL life on earth, when His entire plan was to save all of us through His son Christ Jesus?
The Bible says that Noe was perfect in his generations. In Hebrew, generations can be interpreted as his genetics (the blood) were good; i. e. Noah in particular had not been corrupted by the mischief the fallen angels had undertaken. God had a bloodline and genetic issue to deal with; one that could potentially corrupt the seedline of Christ. It is all about the BLOOD. The whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is about the the BLOOD.
I've studied this topic for more than 10 years now. Have numerous books over it, and every Bible I could get but the Russian Bible. Upsets me that I cannot buy a Russian Bible. I will go to my grave believing that when the Bible says Giants, it means literal giants.
Last edited by Chancey; 07/04/2501:23 AM. Reason: added seedline instead of seed
Here’s some of my notes from Chuck Missler’s deep dove into Gen 6. We are hosting 4th at the house, so don’t have much time, but will try to answer your questions and then expound on it later.
1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2] That the Sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Bene HaElohim = angels. OT (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7); NT (Lk 20:36); Book of Enoch; and, Septuagint (LXX).
“...daughters of men”: Benoth Adam = “Daughters of Adam.” Daughters of Adam, not just Cain. (Adam had daughters (Gen 5:4): that’s where Cain probably got his wife.
“took...of all they chose”: doesn’t sound like the girls had much choice in the matter.
As far as Noah. I think his blood had not been corrupted. Only speculation, but I do think Namaah was Noah’s wife, the corruption possibly passed from her to Ham, the father of Canaan and Nimrod and linked to the Raphaim.
We know this cause the Bible says that the Nephilim were on the earth in those days before the flood…..and also after that.
Last edited by Chancey; 07/04/2511:07 AM. Reason: SSpelling and typing on phone issues
Please show us from scripture the difference between fallen angels and demons. Because everything I've seen tells me that the demons were once God's angels.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
I don’t know why they have to be separate. Anyone who works in deliverance ministries will attest to the fact that there is a hierarchy of the demonic. My thoughts are that Jude 1:6 would suggest that the original fallen angels were locked away. Who would that leave to run the demonic realm? I would think, provided there wasn’t a second incursion of fallen angels after the flood, that the only undead eternal souls left to roam this world would have been the ones that were half human and half spiritual being. Whether the initial ones were or weren’t locked away, they could still be the high ranking members and the nephilim bloodlines that came after could be lower in the ranks
That's a lot of supposing, based on no real evidence. But if you are going to suppose, doesn't it make more sense that it's the nephlim locked away and the original fallen angels still on the loose? Because Jude says it's the ones we left who are locked up, not the ones that were cast out.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
I don’t know and you don’t know, but I think there was a big difference between falling angels and sons of God. A good argument could be made for both. I tend to think they were the basis for most ancient legends and they also are what was behind most ancient technology. From the pyramids to Machu Picchu s higher power was involved in my opinion. Could be wrong
That's a lot of supposing, based on no real evidence. But if you are going to suppose, doesn't it make more sense that it's the nephlim locked away and the original fallen angels still on the loose? Because Jude says it's the ones we left who are locked up, not the ones that were cast out.
Ultimately, all the theories are just theories. Nobody will know until we get to heaven. There is a lot of supposing too (I think) in the sethite view that for some reason men having children with other human women from the same bloodline create these giants of old that end up making the Israelites look like mere grasshoppers. I’m just saying what makes the most sense in my brain. I would be interested in seeing the scripture that backs up your belief too.
Please show us from scripture the difference between fallen angels and demons. Because everything I've seen tells me that the demons were once God's angels.
I follow the late Chuck Missler. I take his resources and buy them and study for my self to draw a conclusion. I think his message is sound, although I don't agree with everything he says. He is sincere in his teaching, and his underlying message is always Acts 17:11.
What I consider demons are what happened to the offspring of the corruption of the bloodline. The Giants, the Nephilim. These creatures were neither human or angelic; they had no souls, but could experience mortal death unlike Fallen Angels. Since they were not human either, they cannot be saved. Since they were neither Angelic or man, but a hybrid. They had no soul by God for salvation. That is why they seek embodiment. I think they are alive and well today and living within many of world leadership.
Demons are also territorial. For some reason, they always seem to seek that which they were originally from or became embodied.
I don’t know and you don’t know, but I think there was a big difference between falling angels and sons of God. A good argument could be made for both. I tend to think they were the basis for most ancient legends and they also are what was behind most ancient technology. From the pyramids to Machu Picchu s higher power was involved in my opinion. Could be wrong
Agree with you completely that this was the basis for all ancient megaliths and their technology.
Some interesting conversation. I respect the difference of opinions that we have. For me personally it gets me to dive into scripture even deeper on thing I normally wouldn't consider. This is a subject that is not a salvation issue. Atliest I would hope not. But the unknown is what gets us searching the scripture and hopefully edifys us in our learning. I can't really coment on the Angels vs demons. Exept that the fact that Angels are messengers. Is a demand a messenger of evil. I'm inclined to think of them as an evil spirit. The opposite of the Holy Spirit. Giving us thoughts of doubt and fear. God does not give us the spirit of fear but one-off a sound mind. We are to test the spirits.
I don't think the angelic view holds water. In Genesis where it mentions the sons of God creating children with the daughters of men, the angelic view would have non-sexual beings sireing children. Not possible.
I don't think the angelic view holds water. In Genesis where it mentions the sons of God creating children with the daughters of men, the angelic view would have non-sexual beings sireing children. Not possible.
In support of what your saying. Hears part of the spiritual view I take. The short version. I also don't believe it's about the sethites and the canites. I believe the 2 seeds are spiritual. One being of God and the other being of the deceiver. In John 4:24 John says, ( God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ) Any one who trust and believes God is not decieved. This includes being obedient. God puts what is right and what is wrong on peaples hearts. When they disobey, this is the taking of the fruit. Now this is where the serpent was telling a partial truth. Now you have sinned, because you believed a lie. That you can become as God. So who are you trusting now. The spirit of God or the spirit of deception? (Two seeds.)
I am curious what the scriptural basis for demons and fallen angels being one and the same?
Matthew 25:41:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 12:9:
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
In Job 1:6 we learn that Satan was in heaven with other angels.
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
I don’t see how any of that contradicts anything in the angelic view PAskinner. I also don’t see how that shows that demons are the original fallen angels. I also don’t know where anyone gets that the angelic beings were not sexual. It just says they do not get married. If the Holy Spirit could create a child with Mary I’m not sure why the other spiritual beings couldn’t do it as well. Good conversations guys
If angels do not have the capability to have sex, then why did the people that lived in Sodom try to rape the two male angels in Lot's house?
Definition of sodomy: sod·​omy ˈsä-də-mē : the crime of oral or anal sexual contact or penetration between persons or of sexual intercourse between a person and an animal. especially : the crime of forcing another person to perform oral or anal sex. sodomize.
The courts call this "crimes against nature" the Bible calls this "sexual immorality and going after strange flesh"
I am curious what the scriptural basis for demons and fallen angels being one and the same?
Matthew 25:41:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 12:9:
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
In Job 1:6 we learn that Satan was in heaven with other angels.
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
In Job 1:6 we learn that Satan was in heaven with other angels.
Does Job 1:6 realy say they were in heaven? And Does it say angels? Most literal translation say sons of God. Ben =Son Elohim =God. After studying Job with the understanding that these sons of God that took council with God my actually literal be Jobs friends in the story. Let me explain. Think of a fellowship, a group of friends. Now these friends are God fearing, but one is wealthy obove the rest. I've seen in churches and in real life scenarios where men would be looked upon with jealousy, and of someone who had much welth, and faith. And it leading to questioning weather they were truly faithful or weather there welth gave them a false sense of being faithful. These friends of Jobs seemed to know God. But when Job experienced tribulation they assumed that he had done something wrong. At the end of the book of Job. His friends were the ones who God said had sinned. Kind of like they had taken counsel with a deceiver present. But thinking they were being godly men. This same scenario could fit. The sons of God in Gen. 6:4 if they were faithful men who had taken un faithful women and raised men with a form of Godless that lived like men of the world. This would also fit the idea of rulers of the world being under this influence. Godly men that are decieved. As Chancy said in and earlier response. Saying he believed these deceiver were the demons that influenced leaders. There doesn't seem to be a big separation between the spiritual realm and the fleshly realm.
Chancey do you realy think these men would have ever accomplished having relations with those angels. The angels had the power to strike the men blind. And the men of Sodom were obviously possessed. The angels were doing what angels do. Delivering a message. Wich as always they delivered successfully.
Chancey do you realy think these men would have ever accomplished having relations with those angels. The angels had the power to strike the men blind. And the men of Sodom were obviously possessed. The angels were doing what angels do. Delivering a message. Wich as always they delivered successfully.
To fit into the worldview that makes the most sense to me, it would/could have been them trying to recreate the nephilim of old. They likely didn’t know if they were good angels or bad. What I believe we know from reading scripture is that angelic spiritual beings had something about them that allowed people to know that they were different from other humans even though they had human form. Abraham was able to see them from a ways off and know who they were was just one example. So this wasn’t just some new guys walking into town that needed to be sodomized according to the men of the town. They wanted to do it for some reason that made sense to them. A transfer of power or creation of powerful being of some sort makes the most sense to me. Ultimately, if Lot knew these men to be strictly homosexuals, it seems weird that he would offer his daughters to them. It seems to me that the men were focused on something specific when trying to engage in relations with the angels and Lot was trying to distract them with something else he thought they would be tempted to take him up on
Chancey do you realy think these men would have ever accomplished having relations with those angels. The angels had the power to strike the men blind. And the men of Sodom were obviously possessed. The angels were doing what angels do. Delivering a message. Wich as always they delivered successfully.
Good question. I honestly don't know, but I will say how I interpret Genesis 19 regarding your question.
For whatever reason that we don't know I think there was some kind of restrictions on the Angels power until Lot was safe. (19:22) The Angel tells Lot that He can't do anything until Lot is gone, not sure exactly what it means, but I take it literally.
After that God destroyed the entire city and all inhabitants and even the plants. Why would He destroy all living things, even plants again? The plants and critters had nothing to do with the sexual depravity of Sodom. This confirms the Angelic View to me. The fallen angels had corrupted all of the creation. The angels were not only manipulating the DNA of humans, but also animals, and plants.
Chancey do you realy think these men would have ever accomplished having relations with those angels. The angels had the power to strike the men blind. And the men of Sodom were obviously possessed. The angels were doing what angels do. Delivering a message. Wich as always they delivered successfully.
To fit into the worldview that makes the most sense to me, it would/could have been them trying to recreate the nephilim of old. They likely didn’t know if they were good angels or bad. What I believe we know from reading scripture is that angelic spiritual beings had something about them that allowed people to know that they were different from other humans even though they had human form. Abraham was able to see them from a ways off and know who they were was just one example. So this wasn’t just some new guys walking into town that needed to be sodomized according to the men of the town. They wanted to do it for some reason that made sense to them. A transfer of power or creation of powerful being of some sort makes the most sense to me. Ultimately, if Lot knew these men to be strictly homosexuals, it seems weird that he would offer his daughters to them. It seems to me that the men were focused on something specific when trying to engage in relations with the angels and Lot was trying to distract them with something else he thought they would be tempted to take him up on
I prefer the most logical and simple explanations when possible. All this just sounds like a lot of reading INTO scripture instead of simply accepting what it actually says. Like this: seeing someone a long way off just means he's in an open area and can see a ways.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
"Sons of God " can have several different meanings. Ultimately, it makes little difference. What we need to learn is the difference between God's voice and the voice of the evil one. That can be a life long process. And to understand that evil has no power over the redeemed, only the power we allow it.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Correct PAskinner. If the voice of the evil one contradicts the Gospel and teaching of Jesus Christ in any way, form, or fashion, then it is deception. Even if it is 98% True, and 2% false, then we are being deceived. Jesus Christ is my Rock; anything that contradicts His ministry is deception IMO.
Genesis 19:22 the angel could not let distruction come on Sodom till lot left. His mission was to clear out lot and those of his family that would follow. It would be like if you had a buck standing behind a tree and you couldn't do any thing until the buck stepped into the open. I don't believe he was saying he was powerless.
Last edited by Giant Sage; 07/05/2510:52 PM. Reason: Spelling
"Sons of God " can have several different meanings. Ultimately, it makes little difference. What we need to learn is the difference between God's voice and the voice of the evil one. That can be a life long process. And to understand that evil has no power over the redeemed, only the power we allow it.
Skinner. Couldn't have said it better. His sheep shall know his voice.
Sportsman 94 have you read the story about the widow be in it Jesus says angels are neither male or female.
I’ve read them all and the only thing I recall Jesus saying about angels is they do not marry. Would be happy to reread and rethink my position if you can give me the verses
In fact, several instances of Old Testament angelic encounters describe them as men (see the story of Joshua coming into contact with the commander of the army of the Lord)
So why didn't the Angel just nuke all the bad ones that were causing the problem and buy them some time?
The whole Chapter to me seems that they were all in a frenzy and stressed about the situation; even the Angels.
Good question, why didn't God just Nuke the Pharisees and those that put Jesus on the cross. He gave them another 37 odd years. The first time Mercy is ever mentioned in the bible is when the angel came to Lot. Jesus said forgive them. For they know not what they do. So he gave them another 37 odd years to repent. Lot was given a choice to leave. The Lord didn't need to go to Abraham before destroying Sadom. But he did to show Mercy.
Obviously there's a spiritual battle going on between God and Satan. Fortunately regardless of the details of the battle we have our Savior who will cover us with God's armor when we are true and faithful servants of our Lord. Enjoying all the input. I'm always learning but I know there's little I understand. I believe God will enlighten us in his timing. The more It seems I don't understand, the more God seems to reveal.
You know the answer to that Giant Sage. The death of Christ Jesus on the cross was not a tragedy; it was an accomplishment. It had to happen in order for you and me, and every one on planet earth to be able to accept the gift of salvation through the BLOOD of Jesus Christ.
What was going on in Genesis 19 was very different IMO.
I was replying to your previous post GS. Sorry, I didn't see the one after that, which I agree wholeheartedly on.
We are all learning in this walk, and deception is everywhere; even in our churches and ministry universities. Base everything against the Rock. For He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.
No need to apologize Chancey, Your right God did give his only begotten son to save sinners. The point I was making was. Even though his Peaple rejected him, not all did. God's long-suffering gave many thousands of Jews a chance to repent. And his mercy and grace overflowed to the Gentiles. This is what's called a theophany. Gen19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found Grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, wich thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life.; A foreshadow of Grace and mercy though Christ to all who believe. Even Sinners that have come short of his glory.
