If I can post this link to the flood in July of 2002, July 1-6, it will show you how we historically repeat mistakes by failing to pay attention to detail.


23 years ago a massive flood inundated our area. July 1-5, 2002 produced over 15" of rain in SA with some parts of the hill country near Comfort getting over 48" of rain that week. By the end of that week Canyon Lake overflowed its spillway for the first and only time ever, carving out a huge gorge and washing out the road below the dam. Medina Lake threatened to go over the top of its dam on July 5th which led Judge and Mayor Wolff to issue an evacuation order to those livin… See more
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Meteorologist Steve Browne
I remember on Saturday morning July 6, 2002 I tuned into KSAT and who is flying around in our helicopter reporting on the Medina Dam as our expert reporter? Our main sports guy Greg Simmons. Proving what I always say about Greg, he's really a newsman that loves sports (and weather). Greg had googled and crash learned as much as he could about dam nomenclature and there he was explaining on live TV about dam headers, and footers, and spillways. Behind the scenes we affectionally called Greg our (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) Dam expert. Hahaha!
4d
Greg Simmons
How could I forget. I think I spent 3 days hovering over Medina Dam in Sky 12. I even remember Judge and Mayor Wolff in the newsroom showing us the emergency message he had received questioning the integrity of the dam. That’s when News Director Jim Boyle ordered Sky 12 into the air as an early warning for our community in case water did start to overflow the dam. As it turned out the spillway worked although Mother Nature carved out a much bigger route.

What's the mistake you are talking about?

Failing to pay attention to the weather warnings I do believe

The warnings are sent out.

People dont react appropriately to the warnings.

That's not EMA's fault.

Everyone has a phone that has weather apps and local alerts.....who is at fault if the warnings are not heeded?

Figure Texans are independent enough they dont need big brother to take care of them

I had been watching that system move up out of Mexico and on Tuesday, I spoke with another Tman member that is on here. He lives just NE of that area. I told him then that I hoped The TDEM and county OEM groups were communicating, because this system was setting up to do the very same thing that happened in 2002. At this point we have far better technology, forecasting models and warning systems. All of those freaking FEMA schools that Police, Fire and county governments as well as municipalities were mandated to attend. There is simply no excuse to evenly remotely use, to escape the responsibility of those in these positions, whose JOB is to be on your A game for the safety and wellbeing of the Citizens and People in an area that is vulnerable.

What Mr. Benson stated above. but far more egregious, from Memorial Day to Labor Day, the area where this occurred is absolutely full, and I mean to capacity with vacationers, elderly campers, various church camps and tourists from all over the country. Not to mention the local residents.

It is their Duty to be paying attention and setting plans in motion, having assets and resources available and staged should they need to begin getting into those areas and preemptively getting those out who cant recognize the gravity of what is about to occur. Children, elderly, disabled........ You dont get to be on a paid holiday, I always worked these times and because it was my sworn duty to do so. It isnt like we didnt have vast resources within a couple of hours already on the Texas border, Troops, Helo's and rescue boats/patrol boats. With Austin a fart sniff away from this area, that is where the calls are made.

This was very much something that should have been being watched with the best you have at your disposal to make the calls to set in motion the preemptive measure to move those out of harms way. If for whatever
reason, it doesnt get as bad as it was shaping up to be. what is lost???? Nobody!!! Our citizens are worthy of our best we have. Even more so are our precious kids.

The problem with that is in those canyons, you most likely do not have a cell signal. Warrior, I do understand what you are saying, yet, the very reason for funding of the emergency management systems is to monitor these very things.

where I live is like where you live. If its flooding, I am most likely very much aware as it is falling straight down on my head. But as Leftlane posted on my other call for prayers, when it rains 30-40 miles as a crow flies, upstream, but the river systems within that basin are 75 miles upstream as the river winds. If those upstream sensors are knocked out, you arent getting any advanced warnings.

Nobody can predict over a foot of rain falling in a small area in a matter of an hour or two.

They can with hindsight

experience, not hindsight. when you have seen these systems set up and the atmospheric conditions are such that it isnt likely to move and is in the highest probability of stalling out. on top of the fact that they have been getting above average rainfall throughout the spring and June.

I haven't been following this sad situation that much but did hear that supposedly the 700 person kid camp had no cell coverage, as sheepdog1 has mentioned before probably because of the topography. Two basic and blunt points.

1) No body should be camping in a canyon flood plain without a serious escape plan, such as when it starts raining even a bit, get people out NOW.

2) And if your an organization running such a camp and do not have a satellite phone capacity in 2025 to monitor potentially MINUTE BY MINUTE changing conditions, then you have no business in running such a camp in such a location. I suspect that organization will be sued out of existence when this is all said and done. However, that won't bring back the lives of those little girls and anyone else that died with them.

And as sheepdog1 has pointed out, employees of the Administrative State get complacent with their jobs, even though they know that such events, although infrequent, still can happen. It doesn't really matter if many of the civilians have no brains to think of such disasters, its the Administrative State officials that have have the ears perked even if was ONLY going to be 3 to 5 inches in that area. Holy , 3 inches of rain in certain canyon landscapes is very bad news for anyone in the canyon.

My federal agency wasn't involved in any immediate public safety issues, at least in my branch of it, but the middle to upper middle management were mostly worthless when it came to real leadership. Most got to their positions by who they knew and who they "knew"...

I guess if your living or operating a camp or business in an area we're flooding is such a danger one would be wise to heed flooding warnings. Individual responsibility is quickly waning in this society.

I believe flood warnings came out Thursday and kept being up graded leading up to the floods.

Well, I have been on the phone for the past hour or so talking to the state about the digital subpoena i was sent to my email address. I will gladly be there with bells on to talk about this cluster....
so all of you that were talking crap earlier, you dont live here., if you do you have no idea as to the vulnerability of this area. Let alone the sheer volume of how many church camps traverse the tributaries within this basin. Especially from Memorial day To Labor day when kids are out of school.

You havent heard a word from the state reps from these districts, nor the state legislators. I am fairly certain I will be answering calls for the coming days about the emails that I sent with the developing weather pattern In which I received not a single freaking response. nor did any of these Jackarse elected turds even open those emails.

This area of Texas is a special area and I so hope others on here from that area reiterate how many church camps are dispersed up and down these tributaries within this specific basin. I know for a fact that there are several other members on here that can speak up if they choose to do so.

,This should have never happened

The EMA folks (Fed, state, or local) can only issue the warnings. The residents and visitors must research/heed the warnings.

Responsibility for remaining in the danger zone lies squarely on those that were in that zone.

From what I've read it appears the last major flood there was 20 or 30 years ago. That length of time results in complacency by everyone.

The canyons have a great flood danger.....why are folks allowed to build/reside there?

Even down on Florida's coastlines, folks are re-thinking those beach houses........knowing full well that the next hurricane is on them after the re-build.

I agree...there are people paid big money to protect the public from these disasters. Especially when this happened just 23 yrs ago
How soon people forget. Flash flood waters moves at 6 mph from what I found.

Those "people" are NOT paid to protect the public from disasters. They can only warn based on weather forecasts and past incidents. Looks to me like that was done.

If a fireman tells you your house is likely to catch on fire due to a fire nearby.....do you stay or go? If you stay and burn up...is it the fireman's fault?

It kind of sounds like a historical problem my hometown of Birmingham had. Lots or poorer neighberhoods sited along creeks would get flooded from time to time. Historical because business knew better than to build in a floodplain even if the risk was an every few years or once a decade thing. Hence the land was cheap, and the labor business required ended up living in those neighborhoods. Eventually business shifted and the city got saddled with the repairs and dealing with it.
Finally the feds, state and city came in and bought up those neighborhoods and moved folks out.

Sounds like those camp lands aren't suitable for camps, limited use maybe but not largescale.

It was too late Thursday night, Swamp Wolf. In that basin if more like 60 mph Sir. constriction of the water headed downhill elevates the pressure and speed. If you havent been here to see this area, stop trying to smash me. I know what the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) i am talking about. i have been doing this for a very, very long time. Statewide, dangit. everyone wants to be an armchair quarterback but none of you have any intel on this area. Ydayum sure havent been in the thick of this crap as it is developing but yet so many of you want to put in your two cents but you have none, zero experience with this specific basin complex.

Yes they are paid to protect the public just as you were as a game warden. Yall are some sorry (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) pieces of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) that dont realize a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) thing. all you want to do is to try to elevate your sorry self to maksomeone else who has been in the fight and is familiar with the state to look like a freaking idiot. (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) on all of you turdheads

I can see both sides here. You can only warn someone but it also sounds like there was an entire generation of folks sitting in the path that had no idea of what the actual risks were having never experienced such.

How do you carry that generational knowledge forward and prepare for it?

I'm reminded of Miami and hurricane Andrew.

Dag on it, your kinda cuttin your throat ole boy. I don't mean disrespect ok. You keep sayin there's a problem in this area but it's apparent y'all ain't doing squat to advert it. Listen, I'm in Ohio and I cryed today, I thought bout them young babies looking to find Jesus and got swept away, it broke my heart. If that area is truly like you say, and I believe it is, then your State needs to do something, they've had notice. To me, this is on Texas, they failed!

I respectfully think you should chill out.
Believe it or not, many people myself included are very familiar with this area, the weather and how first responders respond. They are not first alerters.
IF there is a warning system in place, it would have warned them. If there isn't, it won't warn anyone in some magical way that you think exists in every remote corner of the state. Weather forecasting is is a joke in the 21st century, especially when it comes to freak weather in Texas.
Sit back and relax and try to do something positive instead of ripping everyone a new one, from state officials to anons on an internet BB.

Texas isn't any different lol, nah.

This couldn't have happened at a worse time of day. I saw that the water rose 30 feet from midnight to 6:00 a.m. Those little girls were sleeping and probably thought it was just a bad dream. A tragedy that is hindsight at this point. But if a cop can go to prison over George Floyd dying from an overdose...................

You put this on social media. No one is trying to "smash you."

My heart hurts for those lost and their families and friends. This is a bad tragedy.

Im at a loss here to understand just what you think the EMA folks could've done different....after the warnings were issued/updated.

I can see (as I don't know the historical info for that area) that this incident is not much different than a bad hurricane event. People get complacent (media now saying this was a 100-year flood event)......they don't heed any available warning beacuse they don't want to leave their home....catastrophe hits at worse time of day (night).

Please explain what can/should've been done that wasn't done to prevent this.

As a state law enforcement officer for nearly 30 years (with all that emergency management training (NIMS), these disasters, even though not surprising that they will occur, we were limited to mostly helping people after the fact as many/most will say "that ain't gonna happen" and will not evacuate.

Ive been involved in several natural disaster plannings and responses including tornadoes, wildfires, hurricanes, and floods. During some of these events, we had teams that tried pre-disaster to get people to evacuate. Some evacuations were "mandatory", but we all know how that sometimes goes. Been involved in hurricane prep/responses on Georgia's coast to get residents to evacuate the islands. Then we went back and rescued folks and removed victims. I was in Biloxi, Gulf Port, and Pass Christian, MS for a week after Hurricane Katrina. We were part of a Georgia DNR body recovery team. The bodies we recovered were folks that did not evacuate. I have boated up to many flooded homes here in Georgia and removed both live and dead victims. I'm at least one notch higher than an "armchair expert."

I remember back in 1976 when 144 campers drowned in a flash flood in the Big Thompson Canyon in Colorado. Five bodies were never found. My family camped there often in the years leading up to that event. Mother Nature is full of surprises but today we have technology to know these things are coming. Kerrville, Texas has a population of 24,000+. You would think law enforcement would have had officers on duty that were aware of what was happening.

They likely did. Do you think they notified anyone?

Sounds like your saying It's a very high risk potential of this Happening in that area and a lot of people/organazations decided it was a great place to have church camps for kids.. So to me the people putting those camps on failed in their responsibilities to manage risk and monitor the danger. Sure the government can help warning ect but that doesn't negate personal responsibility and that of the people putting in the camps.

It's not the governments responsibility to keep you safe from making poor choices or being uninformed of potential dangers.

The only way I see to prevent this in the future is to clear all homes, businesses, and camps completely out of that entire river bed.

Is there another way?

1987 Guadalope River flood....

https://youtu.be/hxVpDzS68VU?si=ypZ_2db-V42hBoUC

I would imagine they could run a system out there similar to a tornado siren.

Good info on the system Warrior.

The only glitch I see is the very late (Friday morning at 0400 hrs) emergency warnings. Which is probably the warning that would make folks get out. That seems to be much too late and at a bad time....everyone's asleep.

Night time events/warnings will always be problematic unless the public can be convinced to post some sort of firewatch type guard.

Even here in the south where we expect tornadoes and have good warning systems in place the night time ones always claim a few more victims.

The river rose nearly 30 feet in 45 minutes. Do the math.

It also happened in the early morning hours when it was still dark and most still sleeping. The nature of that area is full of winding two lane roads with low water crossings. These low water crossings get out first usually and can block off escape while the river is still on the rise. Even if they received warning, there just was no time; please keep praying.

That is incredible water rise. In a canyon it can't spread out...

Being this has happened several times b4, why is there no better warning system in place. Maybe this is what Sheepdog is referring to.

Must be very cost prohibitive or some other problems that prevents a better alert of flash flooding along that river.

I kind of gather that the area is a very sparsely populated rural area. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If so, I can see some sort of alarm system, especially for such an uncommon event, being low priority.

Kind of like how we got cable where I grew up. The state built a prison a few miles away and it got cable run to it before they opened the doors.

Internet Google shows a lot of floods on that river but reported deaths in 1987, 2015, and now 2025.

It could be argued that local EMA dropped the ball on the mitigation and preparedness of the Guadalope River flooding potential in this area.

Unfortunately, most EMAs focus almost entirely on response and recovery....because that's the cheaper alternative.

They can't get funding (tax $$) to do any mitigation and very little $$ for preparedness.

True that, always after the fact, never before. We recently had portions of 75 through Atlanta shut down due to flood waters over the road. Five bucks says clogged drains that should've been kept clear.

The fire department did not have anything heavy enough to get to this guy so the neighbor was getting a big tractor and I was putting on a life vest to ride in the bucket. We were all laughing that as swift as the current was the best would do little if I got in trouble. The fire chief did NOT like our plan but I'll give the man credit he was not going to stop us.

Just as Darryl was getting back with the tractor the chiefs radio crackled and rescue chopper advised they were already in the air, had completed their last mission and were only 6 mins out. Yours truly may have dodged a bullet that day + got front row seats to one heck of a show.

Texas has 8 cloud seeding programs in place. They create rain but it's uncontrollable rain. Google "blue rain in texas".

You sir, have a problem.

No, he's just angry at the complacent professional leaders that didn't want their weekend to be interrupted.

Maybe more could have been done. But there seems to be a need to blame someone for everything bad that happens even weather disasters.

Sure is easy to armchair quarterback.

That post was about the people on here.

Gary you are correct. I just got off of the phone with Our Governors office. This isnt about me in any way. The NWS was pushing out the warnings as early as July 2 and all throughout July 3. They continued updating those notifications to the TDEM, however, those were not being pushed out to the County Reps and County Judges along with the County OEM directors, in ANY of these counties within those specific basins.
The other problem was that the emails i was sending out to our TDEM were never acknowledged. I had, according to my call log on my phone a 51 minute conversation with the Governors Assistant to Emergency management. Although they are in the process of recovering deceased people and checking structures, in the weeks to come the investigation will commence.

Warrior and others, the warning system in these counties comes from the OEM, down to the Local EOC's. Those within the local governments should have been, as it is their sworn duty to monitor these events and stand up the EOC's and notify the state of their assessments with and from boots on the ground. This area is populated but mostly within the cities and towns. From Memorial Day through Labor day these childrens church camps are numerous up and down these rivers within these basins. As are all of the RV parks, cabin rentals and a Lot of rafting and tubing venues. With the historical data in regards to flooding and specific weather events, it is unconscionable for each and every county who has jurisdiction over any sector of these basins to not be on straight up full blown readiness when you can certainly see what I saw developing as early as July 1. Even the meteorologists were calling for a higher state of readiness.

in time, you will eventually see that what I am calling an epic failure, will be completely validated. If you had a child or children in those camps, grandchildren and so on, I bet you would certainly be asking yourself and wanting answers as to why an all out blitz didnt occur with all available resources as early as July 3. We had National Guard, State Guard, Marines, Game Wardens, State TRoopers at and within a couple of hours that could have and should have been mobilized to saturate those areas and facilitate the evacuations of those tributary basins. If we can send darn near every State Trooper and Game warden in the state to secure our border, I guarantee you they are up to hauling butt to that area to get our most vulnerable out of harms way.

and yes, I was upset with some people on here because most of the ones commenting have no idea how our emergency management system works, or in this case doesnt work. and when I post things on here that I dang well know what in the heyull I am talking about and then those on here who have no concept or idea as to how this works here, nor of the past history of flooding within in these corridors, try to make me look like a dam fool. Shame on you. I dont call yall out on your areas of expertise and experience based knowledge.

some on here rightfully criticized the LE failure to act in the cowardice attack on the children in the Uvalde School incident. How many more children and others died in this incident when all of the evidence with the building storm system and the frontal stall out that was acting as the blocking mechanism which kept this system right over the top of that area was right in front of their faces.

Okay, if I'm understanding you right. The feds under the national weather service did all they could do. The failure to act was somewhere between state emergency management and the county officials that should have acted preemptively to get people out of the flood zones.

If so that's probably a common problem nationwide.

This act of God happened in mere minutes, Sheepdog the only way to have prevented this was mass evacuations before it started raining. I'm betting many would have ignored those warning too.
There is no blame to throw around, just pray for those affected.

Warrior, that is precisely the issue Sir. I was getting the NWS urgent updates and warnings. everyone of those state Emergency management employees, County Offices of Emergency management Directors and the County judges for each of those counties, Sir, were getting those warnings and updates. The problem was within our own Emergency management network.

I do apologize to anyones feathers that I ruffled. but I can no longer physically be boots on the ground but my dang brain is still functional and I volunteered to testify before our state legislature when these hearing begin. I also have volunteered to be a person who monitors these systems as they approach and then set in.

Yes Sir, Warrior, had those county Judges, who preside over the local EOC's or delegate them to other persons, such as a City Manager or designee, been paying attention. at the latest, by the early afternoon of July 3, the preemptive evacuations should have commenced. They could have actually began as early as noon on July 3 based on the rainfall amounts and the meteorlogical data being provided about the rotation of that system since it couldnt move or shift due to the stalled out frontal boundary.

Ostentatious

God didnt cause this Sir, he allowed it for a greater purpose that we cant wrap our brains around. This didnt JUST Happen Sir. This was developing over at least 4-5 days. Perhaps you are unable to see this as most likely you havent walked in my shoes and been through many of these events. Nor have I walked in your shoes. In this situation, I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, what actions should have been taken, when at the earliest they should have been taken and the protocols for the activation of these measures.

Complacency will always be a human fallacy, unfortunately. Areas that get annual weather emergencies such as coastal areas with hurricanes have good systems in place yet we still get the Miami and New Orleans events.
No easy answer on this one and sadly it is often death that moves us to get better.

Warrior, I wouldnt say that this type of failure or issue is an issue nationwide. I dont believe that to be the case. Our system is so freaking huge, and it was taken from the Texas Department of Public Safety and turned over to Texas A&M. Therein, I do believe is going to be the problem. They arent public service minded, they arent out there currently searching for those missing. They have never had their feet on the battlefield. If you have never been on the battlefield, you just dont know. And, for a fact, you Sir are a combat veteran. Your experience kept others, those new troops alive. My experiences within this field are no different.

Yes Sir, you see what I am seeing. Thank you for your understanding and patience with me.

True, each situation is unique with it's own institutional failures but I stand by my supposition that most folks, civilians if you will, don't fully understand the daily dangers and act accordingly. Sadly people die because of it.

agreed

Have you considered running for office or trying to get appointed so you can fix all these problems?

Sounds like you’re doing what you can by calling them and telling them what’s what.

Hopefully it changes something so it doesn’t happen again.

I will be assigned to a volunteer group of other retired LEO's who have been voicing the very same concerns that I have. I will do whatever it takes to make sure this ever recurring malfeasance doesnt occur again. This time, it has hit some folks with big money in their heart, they lost kids too. So, I bet ya there are some serious changes in the near future. their problem now is that the rain has started again upstream. which will only exacerbate the recovery efforts and extend them.

I dont want to see this happen anywhere within our country. if you have never been sent into one of these areas, it is hard to explain what you experience.

Good on ya sir. Hopefully they listen and this tragedy won’t happen in the future. You’re doing good work.

Sheepdog,
I admire you for wanting to get back involved in solving government's problems after you've retired. But, I still don't see what it is that you hope to change that will prevent this from occurring again. Admittedly, I don't know the area, but from what Ive learned the past few days, it wasn't just a river bed that flooded. It was the entire flood plain. And there were parts of towns built in this plain, along with homes and camps.

I've went back and read your posts and all the others on this thread and the couple other related threads and haven't picked up on anything suggesting what would've made a difference with that huge amount of water rushing thru a 100 mile stretch of river in the middle of the night. Thousands of residents and visitors were involved and in the danger zone.

A better alert system along the entire stretches of the rivers in that area? Would that work? If it saves most lives, it would be worth the cost, but all will never heed the warnings. Just like folks will not heed hurricane evacuation warnings, even after the ones we've had smack us the past couple years.

Ive had every NIMs training offered and am likely more familiar with disaster plans and responses than most on here. Was right in the middle of every major Georgia disaster for 27 years. I feel your pain.

Swamp Wolf then you can understand my dilemma. your terrain is just like mine. however, that terrain, is a whole different animal. we cant think within our own areas of operation and apply that to this specific geographical area. With all due respect, and I adamantly mean that Sir. this area of Texas is probably one of the most if not the most difficult area to monitor due to the bedrock and shear canyon walls. Why oh why, did they allow these camps to be built next to the rivers, inside of the historic flood areas is beyond comprehension.

I am going to fight with everything that I have within me along with many other old farts that are retired, state, county and municipal LE folks, to guide our legislators to make the necessary changes within these death trap basins to stop any further construction of any type of home, apartments, RV parks, Church and non church related camps as well as any primitive campsites. The areas below the highest landbased structures that have never been flooded need to be the absolute basis for any future encampments. Our state has enough money in reserve to allocate to Texas Parks and Wildlife in which they can build roads and access to the river for the recreational aspect of the camps and those coming to vacation in this area. The safer we can make it the more people will come.

to the jerk that wrote ostentatious, that I am not you putrid Jackarse. what if one of these kids belonged to you!!! Would your concerns be self serving and ostentatious. No they would not. I have nothing to prove or further anything in this life; although I had to retire from LE after 33 years and numerous injuries, my brain still functions. What can you say about yourself you judgemental turd. if you cant appreciate those of us who adhere to the oath we swore, which doesnt end until we depart this life, then keep your mouth shut. There are enough folks now understanding my original intent and it has nothing to do with me. If you wish, please come on down and volunteer to search for all these dead kids and perhaps your own remarks will find their way back into your mouth. But, I am betting you dont have what it takes to come on down and do such a thing. so, just keep your judgemental words to yourself. SwampWolf has done these duties as many other LE folks on here have. swallow your pride and just be silent.

I have know Dave for a long time. He is the ultimate professional. He started sending texts on July 3rd and those texts were never opened. I understand his pain. If his text had been acknowledged and warnings sent out there might have not been near as many lives lost.
The Guadalupe River and its tributaries drains a huge area. Thousand and thousands of acres. When you have a weather event such as the Hill Country had last week it is amazing at the amount of water that comes down the tributaries into the river. From Ingram up the river there are several church camps,numerous RV parks, and private homes. There are numerous low water crossings that makes evacuations very tricky if not impossible. I think Dave is frustrated because someone dropped the ball on sounding the alarm on a major flood event. This could possibly have been prevented or minimized.
There have been a number of flood events like this in my lifetime( I am 80 yrs old). You would think we would have developed warning alert system by now that works. Please pray for those people and families that lost their children and the people in the RV parks that lost their lives .

Sheepdog asked me to post this for him

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...up-to-devastating-guadalupe-river-flood/

thank you Savell.

No problem… I can see how this gets to you partner

…. My partner is tore up over this … here’s a snippet of what he tried to do to get ahead of this situation…. And he doesn’t do this for himself… he has that protective mentality and can’t shake it

… he was up for days ahead of this deal and no one would listen

… years ago my daughter got lost in the national forest behind the house … ended up miles away and made camp … it wasn’t the county sheriff that got choppers in the air…. It was sheepdog

You missed an ef word buddy.

… not now

Don’t want you getting in trouble. Kids are still up past their bedtimes reading T-man and can’t be exposed to such things.

lol


Thanks for doing all you can sheepdog and getting the word out. Hopefully you are able to make some positive changes so this horrible situation doesn’t happen again.

Good posts. Thanks Savell and Sheepdog.

… sheepdog ask me to post this one …
https://youtube.com/shorts/VnKe6uzTNmg?si=2vmMGX9ctIY6R53I