Day or so late but what a great conversation. Savell above all - I think it is excellent to question and look into these matters. I see the Lord is beginning to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) your heart and utilize your wife to begin to tenderize your heart through the Holy Spirit. As you grow in faith - you will begin more to comprehend what I mean in these matters.

For myself - I have just seen too much to not believe in the redeeming work and salvation through Jesus Christ. I can't explain gravity or how my lungs process each breath but I have faith in both daily as I live my life.

Until one begins to listen to the Lord and realize who they are in the flesh as a sinner needing salvation and they can't do it on their own - they will have no need of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. I was a lustful adulterer, fornicator, liar, thief, murderer, wretch before Jesus saved me as I laid myself down at 25 years old and let the Lord change me as I gave my life to Him. Did I understand it all - nope. Do I today - nope. But, my trust and life are in the hands of Jesus. He paid the price for my sins of the past and those yet I will commit. My faith is in His redemptive work and I have faith in that and that alone - not in my ability to be good alone - cause I can't do it. I rely on Jesus to guide me and lead me through the Holy Spirit. I seek forgiveness often and as a Christian still am not perfect in my life as I continue to seek to please my Lord and Saviour.

Continue to seek Savell and you will find. I promise you, it is His desire to fully satisfy your hunger.

This was alot to read so I skimmed through. Some are stuck on free will and a choice to choose. 1. God wants you to choose him with your free will, and when you choose that you guys are thinking you have to be prefect.. where Jesus steps in between you and God. Some ways God did want you prefect, but now Jesus steps in and has your back and vouches for you even if you fail. But with that choice you chose the holy spirit comes in and pushes you to do the right thing, in a daily life.. if you do wrong you get convicted, so you repent! Jesus then has your back and talks yo the big man, big man accepts it because the blood of Jesus covers you.

So its a work between all 3 God, Jesus, and holy spirit to keep you in the fold. But if you dont know one you dont know any!

From what I see you, you guys are focus on our free will and choice, what about Gods? He chose not to see sin, he chose to save a select few that chose him... there will be great people go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), because they are to stubborn to chose God, and some we will wonder how on earth are they here? Reason why Satan was booted, he thought he was bigger, better and deserved more. Does that sound familiar?? We think we deserve more! Problem is to get more is to let go and allow God himself to provide.

Seth, you did very well.

I don't know. But knowing the people as I do, I do not believe that is the case. I think they simply do not believe based on logic, not out of a desire to sin. Heck, they're less sinful than most proclaimed Christians I know. And then of course I know "Christians" that live in sin every day with no desire to change... where do they fit in?

Yote the "" work in that case I believe if you have the desire to sin daily without repentance. You dont have the christ in you. And there are so called anything and you can put the " around any one. "Trappers" "politicians" "rocket scientist" you have you ideas about everyone but I feel with religion we focus more on the "Christians" the the ones doing as they are called to do. Also being a Christian doesnt mean we are prefect just means we have God grace and forgiveness. The saying one bad apple doesn't spoil a whole bunch, well in religion it does.

I cant judge the heart of men but my understanding is if they live in sin with no desire to change they probably, in truth, aren't a born again Christian.

I think one can find logic that points to Jesus Christ and logic that points away from Christianity but some have preconceived agendas based off other reasons that only seek the logic that supports that. Seeking of truth you have to come from an open mind that is willing to look at the whole picture and let the chips fall where they may. Ive known the Truth in my mind pretty much my whole life. I questioned ot a lot but never truly doubted it. I spend a good part of my life with my back turned toward Jesus not because of true disbelief but because I loved sin and didn't want accountability for it. I wonder for how many is this the real reason for "not believing".

Feel the same yes sir. Easier to not believe or want to then change your ways.

I believe that is surely the case for many, Seth, but I don't think it's fair to assume it's the case for all.....

Yes point taken

Biblically incorrect. God isn't the author of evil.

Savell,

To address your original questions, Ephesians 1:3-5 says God chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

There isn't a verse that says that some people can’t answer the knock on the door.

It was mentioned about God making a lake of fire for the torment of his children - the fire was not a place prepared for unbelievers but for the devil and his fallen angels.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Just saying...

Interesting discussion

You wouldn't think it but,
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 

Context is a wonderful thing. That verse isn't about what you are trying to make it about. It's about God judging nations, and a better interpretation is "calamity ".

Well said. It's way too easy to rip things out of context.

Not only context, but we also are limited to our understanding of English and most us don't know Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. That is another reason why Bible Study is good for all.

2 Peter 3:9 " The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

God has called EVERYONE to the wedding, but not all choose to attend.

Of course God knew from the beginning who would choose, that does not mean He excluded some people from the beginning, He just foreknew who would choose.
Some people have a hard time getting their head around the issue.

I wonder if God knew Satan would choose sin ?

[video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/r8BhyLMYSDo?si=kP7d2QjBJmyNC7Hj[/video]

Yotetrapper is going to cuss me after showing how to properly load YouTube videos. This is how I imagine Savells upbringing in Church.

All you have to do is truly believe!

Some folks falsely believe that believing is a choice…whereas I know that you believe or you don’t and that we come to believe,and that it doesn’t fall within the realm of choice….for instance, you can not just say you believe so as to get yourself into heaven, God knows whether you really do believe or not…