Wolfe was complaining the other day about cartridge debates on Facebook, ide tend to agree with him that most of those arguments are totally and completely pointless.

This one keeps me thinking though, why choose 10mm over 45 acp for almost any scenario? 10mm makes a big hole but .45 is bigger, so why 10mm?

I think the .45 has more of the “pause” factor than the 10mm simply because of the lower muzzle velocity.

Maybe because the 10mm is typically double stack ??

Glock 45 is 13 rounds and 10mm is 15

Maybe they can double stack them better in guns other than Glock?

I shoot a 45 and I doubt that a double stack 45 would be as comfortable as a double stack 10mm. Everyone's hands are different though.

I'd pick the 10 just because every Tom, Dick and Harry has a .45.

10mm is basically a 40 magnum if I understand it right

If you have one. Then you don't need the other. Like .270 vs 30/06.
But overall .45 ammo is readily available and cheaper.

Sarge's preference - 45 acp. 230.grain ball.

Sarge

Glock 45 is 9mm- 17 plus 1.

Velocity and rounds in the magazine

45acp is a 20KPSI cartridge
10mm is a 40KPSI cartridge

you get 3 extra rounds in a 10mm mag than the same length 45 mag
45 tends to stay 2-300 fps lower in velocity than 10mm when you get out of personal defense ammo where things are calibrated to 12-16 inches in gel

so more power more rounds

technically since 10mm was around first , 40S&W is 10mm light

a tech at the FBI brought in his own 10mm to test durring the search for a cartridge that would go >12 and <16 inches in 10% gel test medium because that is what the FBI said it wanted out of the next cartridge

he down loaded 10mm till it fit the box the FBI wanted then contacted S&W about making the cartridge a shorteded 10mm

funny thing is Glock beat S&W to market with it because they had the G17 frames , the G20 slides and barrels so all they had to do was use the 10mm extractor fit to a basically 17 slide with a bigger hole bored in the end and shorten the 10mm magazine to fit the G17 frame

all the tooling was already inhouse just not on the same line.

and the G22 was born
by the way the 45acp Glock was G21
the G19 size 40 was the G23

model numbers are in the order Gustopf got pattents on them

learn how to shoot, train often and put the bullet where it needs to be to render said POS deceased. I can take a 22 LR and wear an SOB out because of my training. I dont need anything huge in regards to caliber. Put the payload where it needs to be. its that freaking simple. If you havent been in combat or in LE and in several firefights, you arent prepared for the situation. you will fall back to the lowest level of training under stress.. If you have lit up several combatants, it is as smooth as silk. deal with them and move on... most of you folks have no idea what it is like to be in that situation. every time it becomes easier. we werent made to kill one another, but when your life or that of another is on the line, you dam well better have trained for it.

I dont wont to be in a postition to need to shoot someone, but, it wont be my first rodeo and I will darn sure deal with it as need be.

I hear redneck jokers talk all the time about taking the life of another person. Until they are in that position. Been there with some and they froze when they should have been kinetic. talk is one thing, being able to act in the face of death is another.

950 fps vs. 1200 is the main thing

bullet placement is the main thing. i take it you have never been in such a situation.

many have their BS takes on this, if you havent been in combat or and active LE on a regional SWAT team, your are talking out of your rear end. You have never been face to face with a combatant and in a direct gunfight. save your BS for another time. Most of you have never been in this situation, I have, many times. Our WW2 vets, Korean Vets, Viet nam vets, and Iraq and Afghanistan vets dam well know. I was in Columbia fighting those turds. I have seen my share of this crap and I stilll cant escape the demons that haunt me. If you havent been in such a situation just stop. Because you have no freaking Idea as to what it is and what it is like. Just stop

220 gr. 10 mm max loads run about 980 fps
230 gr. 45 acp max loads run about 960 fps

Seeing Buffalo Bore advertising 255 grain .45 at 925 fps
10mm 220 grain at 1,200 fps

I've never shot a grizzly but hypothetically even in the scenario where you're shooting a grizzly is the 10mm better? Ide be curious to know how a 255 grain hardcast does in a bear at 925 fps, I imagine it would do some damage.

Modesty is overrated

would prefer the 45 for minnesota communists, 10 mm for bears

Fat and slow still gets the job done.

What kind of range can you get with the 10mm?

How far can you effectively shoot a striker fired pistol?

60ft, that is way closer than I want to be to a grizzly.

9 for the hoods 10 for the woods. 10mm is mighty popular in alaska packs a punch

is the target moving or stationary ?

if it is stationary about 100 yards

if it is moving closer like 20 yards

Then add in: Is the target returning fire?

Chris

Sheep dog sounds like you are the only one qualified to have an opinion. Others can't have an opinion on what cal is best if they have not been shot at.

OK. Let me run this by you.

I shared my opinion on 5.56 ability to stop a threat based on what I have seen on coyotes vs how they react with other calibers like 243 7mm-08 and 260 rem with my brother inlaw.

Now said brother inlaw has killed many people in Afghanistan he knows of and many more he is not sure of . Has been blown up 2x shot in the plates as well.

When I told him my opinion on 5.56 for people it was not favorable bases on what I have seen on 30lb dogs when compared with larger caliber. He said i was correct it usually took up to 5 hits to put the Afghans down and 308 typically did it with one but he did have one that took 3 with the 308..

Picking the best preforming rounds is a different conversation than how individuals will react under pressure in dangerous situations. You are getting the two conflate

And the round does make a difference and is why they developed the 45acp to begain with the smaller rounds were not stopping the threats. And also why they have been looking for a better preforming round than 5.56 for years. Sure you can drop deer with a.22lr every time in the right condition but thats not your all seasion all shot angle deer gun your going to be relying on.


I like the idea of .45acp. But its not legal for deer in Indiana but .40 s and w and 10 mm are.

Only deer I have shot with my .40 s&w have been deer hit by cars. It put holes in them. Handgun are all weak compared to rifles. In theory a glock 22 10 mm with 15 rounds in a chest rig with higher round.count and thin profile seems like a good back country protection gun over large relover. But just my theory. I dont want to be relying on a handgun for mad bear defense at all. At that distance and amount of time I figure I may kill/wound the bear but would also be dead.

Ballistics is why. A hot 10mm load leaves at 1300+ fps. A hot.45 load leaves at a blistering 900 fps. Shooting the same 180 grain piece of lead, one is just longer and skinnier than the other. From a ballistics and performance standpoint, science says the 10mm is far superior. Ammo cost and availability are the only reason to even look at a .45

Most 45 I see is in the 230gr weight area not 180. Still less energy for sure but more frontal area. Also less recoil impulse easier to shoot well. Recoil reduction is why the 40 s ,& w was made after all. A lot of shooters at the fbi could not handel the 10mm well. ( i think i read mostly the ladies)
.

I like my 10mm , didn't enjoy shooting a .45.
For me it's what I shoot best and the 10mm works well on hogs, and bear if I ever need it.

What caliber do bears use?

Looking at the set of grizzly claws I have ide say about .50 cal.

Reluctantly I will join in. I agree 100% with Sheepdog1. Been there and experienced events like he has (Vietnam 70 & 71, 101st ABN).
The most important factor is training, physiology and experience. I witnessed more than one person who one would least expect freeze up in fire fights. Be it hunting or personal defense motor motion and instinct are the winning factor. Become proficient with the firearm, shoot often and pray you never are placed in the position of needing to branish in defense.
Roy

I only shoot a 10mm because they don't make a 12mm!

I have a .45. Never shot a 10mm.

lol

I shot a 45ACP during my army stint in AIT. Reliability was great, but that's about all I can say about it that would make me want one.

I mean they do 480 Ruger is 12mm

45acp is 11.5

So I guess a Super Redhawk is in your future now that you know.

Turns out there is a Youtube Video where they did a reasonable test on this, turns out it doesn't matter much.

They also say since they're both larger calibers accuracy doesn't matter as much just point and shoot... or something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgwgnqeRqeA

Never shot a 10mm, but did shoot a 45 for awhile, even in practice qualifications.... I found it very accurate, and controllable with 230 ball...shot a practice qual with a 300 score. I ended up giving it to my son when he moved to Texas....

you are putting hand guns against hand guns and they are all sort of the same weak but much easier to carry and never your first option

there is a different guy who does some different testing , he puts 44mag against 10mm because again even a magnum doesn't carry enough more to make a big difference

rounds on target once you get into 357, 40, 10 , 45acp , 45lc ,44mag really even 9mm in some cases is much more important than foot pounds of energy
what can you shoot faster on target , what can you bring to bear faster
this guy likes the 10mm because it gets into the penetration range you want , comes in a simple , reliable package and gets rounds on target.

Hypothetically, if you jam the barrel of Semi automatic against a bear and pull the trigger that's your last shot, a revolver would keep running.

At some point the discussion just becomes "carry what you're comfortable with" and that's probably the best choice. I just couldn't seem to understand the current infatuation with 10mm over a .45, I think it's mostly marketing.

I think it is largely rounds in mag more is more better at least in people mind
not reloading does make more hits faster , will you have time for more hits , maybe but if you don't have more ammo you can't make them

also it is the marketing push so it is in peoples minds , got to do something new to sell


but also Henry and Marlin have released 10mm lever guns in trapper carbines
10mm is a bit like 357 mag it makes some bigger gains in a 16 inch barrel than 45acp will
so then you have a short handy lever gun that can hold 10 rounds in the tube
are those gains enough to matter maybe not but the shoot ability of a short carbine increases your hit ration significantly at distance
now one ammo for your side arm and carbine.
it's a point many be not the greatest point
https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/model_70453/

I'm going to adopt that saying. Glock17L and Glock G40

hypothetically you can rip off 16 rounds before you are empty from your Glock 40mos and you have to stop and reload your revolver at 6
so 16 or 6 rounds same time 2.67 times more rounds in basically the same weight package no reloads
reload time also much faster so in the time you can fire 7 rounds with the revolver the auto is 31 rounds in

yes you should train to not JAM the gun into anything when firing

If a bears on top of you dont wanna be fighting back hypothetically. Curl up on your belly and play dead. Few years ago a guide was attacked, he threw his glock 10mm to his client yelling to shoot the bear. Client couldnt figure out it had no manual safety and ended up running away. Guide was killed. Moral of the story, revolver or autoloader aint gonna help if you dont shoot.

Yikes! That reminds me of the saying "you don't have to outrun the bear you just have to outrun the slowest person you're with". It's hard to imagine running away with the gun while the guide gets chewed up.

I'll edit my reply.

hard to imagine trusting a client to shoot anything after being a guide for a while.

makes you think he was in some way incapacitated already or hadn't been a guide very long. although you would think if you can toss your gun you can fire it , hard to say we weren't there
and we have no idea how much of the story the client was actually telling

maybe more likely that the gun was knocked loose from the guides hand when hit and not really tossed , the guide then maybe pleaded for him to shoot it , shoot it and the guy froze then ran but had to explain why he had the gun after the fact so that is what he went with.

who knows we weren't there sounds like no one was.

real shame

Before I shot my first bear everyone in camp kept saying how nervous everyone was when they saw a bear and how hard it is to control your emotions. When I shot my first bear I didn't feel much different than when I shot a Raccoon, I mean heck I was in a tree stand, not like I was spearing it on the ground.

you also hang out of trees with a chain saw

have hundreds of coons killed

that is probably a lot different experience than others have.

people like to overthink things , when all they need is good muscle memory of bringing a gun to bear on a moving target , sounds like yours might have well been a deer from the tree stand and it hadn't a clue you were even there to shoot it till the shot was fired.

we had a portable electric remote clay thrower and had it set up that it would basically drop that clay about 10 feet to your left and 20 feet behind you , the thrower was protected by a plywood shield and out about 50 yards , the remote we could send them at you fast , dust one and the next one was on the way made you track and hit , if you got it a little close parts of the clay would shower down on you.
running this with a 18-20 inch barrel shotgun like you might be carrying for slug hunting or defense and you get familiar with it , and the limit wasn't 5 birds and you shot till you stopped it or it was past you and it was you need to keep topping off any time you get a break
learn to load while watching for incoming , be quick to shoulder , it isn't perfect training nothing is but it gets you quick.

pistol targets on a sled pulled at you can also build memory, the fist time you see a swinger or a peek-a-boo target that is activated by another target it seems so fast after a while you are trying to figure out if you can shoot the activator grab another target on the way and still get the activated target.

none of it is perfect but it all builds muscle memory and is a lot better than what most people do , a stationary target that is always in the same spot.

walking while shooting the pistol and engaging multiple targets learning to fire 2 rounds every time your foot hits the ground then transitioning to the next target during the stride

nothing is perfect but it all helps.

Black bear im assuming? They are kittens.

Yes Black bear. Grizzly hunts exceed my budget sadly.

The sheltered clay thrower tossing targets at you sounds like a blast! I gotta look into that, that would be a major hit with my friend group.

Black bears dont scare me, grizzlys may make me nervous a bit.

I shot my first deer with my bow around 14. Everyone always talked about buck fear, geting shaky and excited.

After I shot her I remember thinking hmm that was no big deal what were they taking about. And I have never gotten shake on a deer yet.

My youngest was shaking incredibly when his first deer came into view. Luckily there was no good shot for several minutes and he calmed down. He was also shaking after dropping a buck 2 years ago his largest at the time. . It was cute.

It effects everyone differently

I think a 45ACP is in fact a legal deer round in Indiana. If you shoot it from a rifle.

It wasn't but may be with the new wide open cal rule changes we have had. I haven't looked at long gun rules for .45acp requirements But do know as of last year its not legal in hand gun.

The rifle must fire a centerfire cartridge with a bullet diameter of .219 of an inch (5.56 mm) or larger. A hunter may not possess more than 10 such cartridges for each of these rifles while hunting deer.

It appears your are correct when in a rifle. There have been lots of changes loosening up the restrictions over the last several years.

I was referring to handgun and its still not legal for them but I think should be.