Since I'm sure that is what is going on hot and heavy right now. So how many graders are there? Used to hear rumors about common day workers of various nationalities being trained to grade fur. Any truth to that?

I will have an opinion after the sale. I trap rats. I start in December. We used to have a Horicon group with Nafa. They presented heavy WI marsh rats. We always averaged 10% above sale averages, and rightfully so. I have that same type of rat up at FHA in the sundry goods. We’ll see how they grade out.

It seems to me that on a rising market the grading seems to be a bit more lax. Anybody notice that?

It always has been more lax when the markets were strong. I like many shipped to NAFA for over a decade and noticed significant differences in grading based on market strength or weakness. It really showed up in my coons for me as I did not have many canines or beaver.

Bryce

Where is ocoB, he will tell you the grade never changes. It is nothing new. The stronger the market the more they push the grade. When it is dead they tighten it up to try to add value to get interest.

Here I am.
Pelt grades never change.They are what they are.
Part lotting and intersorting different grades (lower grades poorer colours of similar value etc) to make larger lots to make them more attractive to the manufacturers is done from time to time depending on the collection.
later collections are a different animal than early collections and are sorted accordingly.
The amount of fur in a collection will often dictate how far the breakdown (by specie) will go.

Grades don’t change but grading sure the heck does. Pelts often go up or down a grade depending on the market.

I dont buy it.You are confusing grading and intersorting of different grades into a lot.
A semi is a semi and a hvy is a hvy and a xdk is xdk and a brn is a brn.And a xxl is an xxl and a sm is a sm.
Now if there are not enough to breakdown separately they can be part lotted or intersorted like in beaver where you get the 3x and 2x lotted together because there are not enough of the one in a colour of sel grade.
With lower grades and dmgs colours weights and sizes are often intersorted because value is low and the same between the different grades.

I can’t recall what Jeff grades, but Ken’s probably the best beaver grader out there.

Do you really believe in what you posted or are you just trying to create a thread?

I believe they start new guys off with a measuring board/tape.
The main graders have been there a very long time.

If you don't believe grades change or are at least subjective, buy 1 lot of fur at the auction and then send it back the next to be regraded and resold.

I agree with Boco that those things don't change but the one important thing that the rest of us are thinking isn't consistent is the one thing he doesn't mention and that is the quality. Most of us agree that a pelt might go up a quality grade on a year like this year that would go down a grade on low buyer interest years. Boco is a company man with northern pelts that the grade probably don't change much. Us US shippers see dramatic changes in grading from one year to another. I bet someone could go thru the June catalog from 2 years ago and see how many mink graded I-II or better as a percentage of the overall collection and compare that to this year's June auction. I would bet real USDs that there will be a higher percentage of better grades this year.

Schmattz

I agree with Schmattz.

The grades dont change, If a group of pelts that was sorted from one collection is reconsigned to a different collection of course they will be sorted into that collection where they fit/match best.
Every year in fact every sale the collection varies.For example one year rhe marten may have an overall wooly finish and other years or even an earlier collection the species will have a better guard hair finish.
This is noticeable to experienced graders and pelts are sorted accordingly.
values and demand will also dictate how pelts of different grades are intersorted into lots.And so will the amount of fur per species dictate how many grades can be broken out.
But the grades dont change.

I have had more or less the same bobcats grade into three different sections. Lately they're hitting into western (100%) and I'm dang happy with that.

That’s a good way to explain it.
It’s hard for a new trapper, or one’s that don’t really pay much attention to the market/auction, to pick up what this paragraph is laying down.
It’s all good, but some get upset when they see their grades and don’t really understand the big picture.

All pale 2 marten have changed to lt brown. The grade changes. Go find one pale 2 clarity in the catalog. Rats sizes had changed three times at nafa. The list is endless

I could post nafa receipts going back 30 some years and the marten grading change will be obvious. And yet, some people will spin some nonsense about the grade doesn't change.

The collection changes and so does the resulting lotting and sorting of skins.As a result the descritions may be different.some descriptions may be dropped for new ones depending upon the intersort of skins to accommodate buyer/manufacturer needs and changes/improvements in processing (dying).The grades never change.
The head Marten grader at Nafa for many years,Therese Demers,a regular attendee at our council meetings and workshops explained it very well.
You could learn a lot from her Dirt.

Get out in the world a little. FHA hasn’t been the only place to market fur over the years. Believe or not you views of the fur business aren’t the gospel according to Boco. LOL

whatever,just go to the auction at sale time and inspect the lots and talk to the graders.

Are we taking into account that the graders are human and most likely do not see everything the same way. What is semi-heavy to one grader may be a heavy to another. I don’t care how much training a grader has or how many years of experience they have, every grader isn’t going to see every pelt the same way.

You take a group of 50 western coyotes and the best 3 coyote graders at FH and I guarantee
the end result will not match exactly!! I am willing to put money on that statement!!!

Boco???

Dirt???

Any other arm chair experts???

2X

I remember in one of the last years HE Goldberg was in business the ol' man had hired a Laotian immigrant to help, and finally had him grading as well. I was up there with a pickup load of beaver and Erwin had the new guy grade them. Very distressing to me since I'm certain he wanted to only error on the side that benefited his benefactor. Boy oh boy did he too!

Boco the grading has changed and it all depends on many factors, back in the day a xxl coon was 30-32 in now 29-32 in is the standard, The sample lot for rats at fha 2 yrs ago I can show you some lg and xl rats mixed in with what should of been xxl and 3xl only for top lot...

I never claimed graders or grades don't change. We just discussed last Auction how wolverine went from dark grade to pale? I have also talked to the fur/buyer agent and fha buyer who seem to all come to the same conclusion about Canadian expert ten second graders. It is what it is.

It is very easy to spot a pelt that is out of place in a lot.Even a half arsed grader would notice it immediately.
Many pelts are shuffelled around when they are being matched into the final lotting breakdown.
With the advancements in fur dying technology there is no need to break out XXp from XP or even pales if they all take the dye the same and wind up identical after processing.
They will all have the same value to the manufacturer so those different grades could be intersorted and sell under one lot description.
Manufacturers have input to what they want to see.
Beaver hatter market is a good example of different grades with same values/
The lowest grades are not even sectioned let alone broken down by colour or weight etc.

Yup, to put it in easier English for the newbie to understand. The grades don't change, but the graders change where they sort the fur to match the current market and offerings.

So yeah, the grades don't change, but what the fur in that grade looks like changes from auction to auction. And this isn't an FHA thing, the entire industry does it, NAFA did, Groeny does it, any auction that publishes grade sheets does it, and individual fur buyers do it.

And actual grades do change occasionally, but rarely. Kinda like language changes.

You’re all over the map here chum…….lol. Or maybe it’s because a Canadian is telling what you got for fur? If FHA won’t talk to you anymore, get someone else to ask for you.……
Some just live for drama though....

How do you and your brother Boco come up with this stuff?

| |
------------ 6 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ 190.00] |*** S O L D ****
110 - 30050 STR 63 1X SELECT HVY LT BRN-PL 3 | | 1||
[ 190.00] |*** S O L D **** 110-30051 END 20 ** 83 ** | |
------------ 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ 300.00] |*** S O L D ****
110 - 30052 STR 150 1X SELECT HVY LT BRN 1-2 | | 1||
[ 300.00] |*** S O L D **** 110-30053 ... 150 | | 2||
[ 300.00] |*** S O L D **** 110-30054 ... 74 | | 3||
[ 300.00] |*** S O L D **** 110-30055END 20 ** 394** | |
------------ 4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ 260.00] |*** S O L D ****
110 - 30056 STR 33 1X SELECT HVY PL-XPL 1-2 | | 1||
[ 260.00] |*** S O L D **** 110-30057 END 20 ** 53 ** | |
------------ 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simple fact is 3 years ago those lt brn1-2 were called pl 1-2

. It is worth noting that COLOUR is VERY important as the paler colours brought the highest prices seeing levels of $300 in even the XL size. So the sections of Alaska and NWT should receive more than the posted average.

Mark Downey

That's you grading your fur. That's why you're not an official grader. That's terrible....... You're all over the map there too......lol.

I know 3 of the graders and a coupe from GFW. They grade fur the same way all the time. How it's lotted may be different. The initial grade doesn't change.
If you're telling these graders how to do their job, that's probably why you're not getting any responses back when you reach out to them. You won't find them posting here, defending themselves as it'd be flogging a dead horse with some. Some don't accept the truth, and need turmoil & drama on the web..... so be it.....lol.

So Shakey, who does the cat grading? Just one guy or several?

The cat grader I’m not sure. If the US fur is funneled to one location before it crosses into Canada, it could even be graded there.
I know the western coyote guy (any coyotes coming through the Winnipeg depot he grades), the beaver grader and another that grades a few different species. I leave them alone a month before auctions and the following 2 weeks as it’s a complete gong show. I can get ahold of Mark easily enough, but those other fellas I leave alone…..lol

Fur goes thru a lot of hands in the sorting process before final lotting.
Sectioning sizing weighing coloring etc is like an assembly line.
The overall quality and size of the collection has bearing on the sorting process.
Species that are sold individually or in small lots take less handling overall,compared to species like marten that are sold in larger uniformly matched lots.

So the final lotting would just be taking X number of furs out of a bin and giving it a lot number right? No final look over?

Another question is I see there is a "Show date" of 5-28-26 What does that mean? At that point buyers can look at the lot samples?

From what I seen odd pelts that stick out from the bunch are pulled and put where they belong several stages along the process.The final lots will be inspected by the head grader no doubt.
A small number of skins that reflect the string are pulled after the final lotting and are strung as a sample lot for buyers to peruse and write in their catalogue before bidding.
You can identify the sample lots in the cataloge,they will be a small number of skins at the bottom of a string of uniform larger number of skins in the lots above.

Show date is the day buyers can start looking at the sample lots.

So the sample pelts are for the whole string, not from each lot then?

I seriously doubt that the entire final lots are inspected by the head grader of that species. At that point in time the grading crew is just thankful to have the job done and catalogs ready for the buyers.

They may double check the top lot but not every lot!!

A string is broken out into lots.All the lots in a string are the same.
The lots consist of the number of pelts a manufacturer will need for a garment.
For example a string of 1000 identical marten will normally be broken down to lots of 150 pelts each,enough for a couple fur coats.Saves the big international buyer a ton of time and money compared to if he is buying ungraded/un lotted fur from trappers or fur buyers.
Lynx are around 20 in a lot
Top lots can be a small number of skins also.

What do string lots have to do with a final inspection? I’m confused about what you are posting. I understand completely how the grading process works, I don’t understand how your recent post addresses the question at hand.

Yes Therese Demers head marten grader mentioned random inspection not each string.
Also sample lot is indicitave of the string..

In theory, the sample lot represents the string. If grading is really tight, then the sample does represent the string. If grading isn’t tight, then it is any body’s guess what the string looks like. LOL

Why don't one of you guys that are so sure that the grade never changes go by a lot of fur. Take it home, resend it and see if it grades exactly the same.

Not a chance

Not one iota

Zilch

NADA

Grading fur is a lot like grading veneer and saw logs. When I got out of forestry school and purchased logs, the owner always said "grade and scale stay constant" price is what changes.

I have noticed sometimes when the hammer goes down on a lot in the string the next lot of the string may be bid up higher or lower, sometimes substantially so. I always wondered if the lot was quite different from the samples that they looked at. If it was the same sample for the whole string then that theory is wrong.

How many of your friends are BSers? And if you don’t know any graders, how many do you think would say, “this year, I’m gonna call this a semi pale instead of just a semi”. I could maybe see the country buyers screwing around like that….. or me unintentionally….lol.
I pay garbage for fur, and keep telling the few suppliers I got that they should put it up themselves and send them in because that’s all I’m gonna do. I also tell them what I got for their animals. I tell one guy, “I’ll give you $120 for those and hope to get $200ish”……. He says “no no no, just give me 40” and I have to force him to take $80…… not a bad problem I guess….lol

I think the shippers s that accuse FHA of this grading stuff got something against them, got ripped selling to someone else or just have issues (distance) dropping off with an agent and with they were in the club too…..lol

Carl - the buyers only see the sample lot in a string. The bulk lots are already packed for shipping. So your theory is wrong.

The price difference has to do with which buyer needs how many. It has to do with “up” “drop” “out”. Which is too complicated to explain in words. If our paths ever cross, I will explain it in person. It can get to be a 3 ring circus!! It is fun to watch.

I see my fur showed up today….not graded, but the lots are listed.

Shipper grades won’t be posted until the catalogs are all done. Probably the 26th or 27th.

Jake, I have a friend that buys a bit of fur in the country and at the Canadian auctions. He purchased some coyotes one year, had them sent to a business in Winnipeg. Well for reasons only important to him he didn't need them and them sent back to the auction I'm here to tell you they didn't grade the same.

I don't have a problem with how my stuff grades when I send it. Quite happy with the auctions over the years but I ain't eating the company line.

You should sit down and talk with some of the large buyers who purchase fur at the auctions

If he bought fur at North Bay, how does he know if they were graded there or the Winnipeg Depot? What’s a bit of fur, 5 coyotes or a few strings?
If he bought them in North Bay, he won’t know if it was only Darcy grading them, or if some were graded in North Bay. Tough to track.
I’ve talked to a few buyers, but I only know one bigger Canadian one really well, the big dogs are obviously the Chinese……..haven’t talked to them…….lol, but buddies have. A lot of them send brokers, cleans things up and much easier moving fur.

Is it possible to buy 5 coyotes at a Canadian auction?

Are you now saying it depends on who grades them? If it does then it's subjective.

I’m actually not sure, depends on the lotting I guess. Never really looked at the coyote lots.
The grades should all be pretty close if they’re both good at their game. It’s the odd ones that are in between that might be different.
I know for fur compitition, it’s the friggin judges personal preference in the end if things get tight. I won ours again, but the judge pointed out things I did “wrong”. I told him that I like fur that way, and in the end the buyer wants fur, so give him fur. I left the legs on some animals too long for his liking….lol

Ìf you buy fur and send it to get taned and then change your mind about how you are going to finish it that is not on the auction house, YOU SHOULD BE GLAD THAT YOU STILL HAVE A OUTLET TO WORK WITH.

You guys make me laugh out loud sometimes. Guys talk about sending fur to the auction that has been in the freezer for 3 years. Junk.

I know of several retailers who buy fur at FHA,they attend the conventions in summer and winter and put on the fur fashon shows.I talk to them all the time.
Consistent grading is of the utmost importance to them and FHA.If the grading was inconsistent the buyerw would lose confidence in the collection.
They all recognize the consistant grading and lotting at FHA and have been buying fur there for decades.
The top graders at FHA have also been there for decades,a few have worked for both NAFA and FHA over the years some back and forth several times.
They know how to grade a pelt and lot the collection for the benefit of both the producer and buyer as required by the industry.
If they didnt they sure wouldnt still be around since Ontario trappers started our own auction house in 1955.

Fur stored in a freezer for 3 years is NOT junk. Properly stretched/dried pelts that are properly stored are just fine. Most species will dress just fine. They may not grade select but if they were I-IIs going into the freezer, they will be I-II coming out. If you put junk in the freezer, it will come out junk.

I know any number of trappers and dealers that have stored dried pelts for 3 years or more and done just fine when it came time to sell. Yes, they did fine because the market on that species has improved but the pelts are still good enough to bring #1 price.

I seem to recall that Nafa was getting a black eye on their beaver grading being a bit inconsistent, and that FHA had the upper hand in that regard. Heard that from more than one source. That was when I quit shipping beaver to Nafa and only went with FHA. At least for beaver.

I remember that. There was a time FH beaver and otter grading was spot on. What the catalog said is what you were looking at on the table. Bought otter once for a customer and never looked at a skin. He knew what he wanted by the words in the catalog.

That has always been the case, and in a falling or low market condition the grade really tightens up.

Yup, when buyers are hungry and figure on making a big profit quickly, they are not as concerned about a few borderline skins slipping into the better lots, and graders know this. Even the buyers will do this when grading themselves, because they are looking for numbers.

Depending on species and number of fur? Look at skunks. Market exploded and the next auction there’s much more grades, but twice the fur too.
Didn’t help with jerks like me sending in August skunks……lol

Yeah, they called that grade "Junk-skunk". LOL

But the grade never changes, just what makes the grade does. Some how that is changing the grade to me. The only thing the same is the name.

That’s what Northof50 said.
“The only thing those will be good for is buried for a wolf bait!”……lol
I thought he might be right, but I did a test. I sent them all in and promised to show my $$. The Jake skunks.
Lowest one was $22USD……so I’ll keep sending the M-XL…….”Js””. You know the Clarity grades, A,B,C,D…….they added a new one for my skunks…..”J”. Not sure if that’s for Junk or Jake?
Round here, they all make the “Jake” grade….

Baloney,different grades may be combined as part lots,but that happens all the time not just when demand is up or down.
A lot of the bottom grades are intersorted because there is no reason to break them out separately as they have the same value.
In the sec 3 even difeerent sections can be intersorted.
But the grade of the pelts doesnt change.
A pelt grade is what it is.

Probably just semantics. Grade may be the same, but more fur goes into the better grades when the market is hot for that particular item. At least that's how I've been seeing it over the years.

I think peeler hit the nail on the head. The grade stays the same when it comes to the wording - 3X I-II A-B - but the pelts that go into that “grade” depends on the grader and the way he sees the pelt. Grader X says it is an A-B when it comes to belly color. If grader Y was working that group of pelts and he thinks the belly is a B color, that pelt would go in a different grade.

The grade on paper is the same - the pelts are different.

It is possible, that depending on the market, the grader is told to be very tough on belly damage (on muskrats). The “grades” are the same - #1, vsl, sl, dam, bd - but where the pelt ends up can vary.

Hope that makes sense.

That's exactly what you folks have been going back and forth on this entire thread.

The grade never changes but the skins that make a particular grade do.

The graders are people too, each having a slightly different eye. But there’s not 30 different graders sifting through the marten or beaver. Keep in mind, during the first auction of the year, the people got full time jobs, a trapline to run and an international auction to sort out. If drop off deadline is early January, that’s when things start really happening.
Depending on what the big buyers are looking for, some might be slid into another lot, but the grade of that fur didn’t change. Have your fur info in front of you and watch the auction.
I believe this was mentioned above.

Not how it works.maybe with single pelts two different graders may see it a bit different but when it goes into the pile if it doesnt match it is very obvious that it belongs in another pile down the table where it does match.
The intense lighting on the lotting table makes any mistake in placement obvious especially in the colour grades.Sizing grades are also consistent although sometimes different size grades are lotted together for the sellers and buyers benefit(to make an attractive sized lot).The size grade of each pelt is what it is though.
As far as slt dmg grades on beaver being broken out I personally dont think it should be done.As a tanner and furrier myself A slt dmg pelt is worth the same as a non dmg pelt to me since a small repair before blocking is a couple seconds work in the big picture certainly not a 10 or 20 percent drop in the value of the pelt all other things being equal.
The breakdown of SSL at nafa was laughable,and just a marketing thing.
There is some good grading information in the NAFA series from flowage to fashon as well as in the fur bible.
Grading and sorting are two differnt things but entirely related,The sorting process depends on the initial gradings,ie sizing colouring weighing and dmg grading.
Once the sorting of the pelts starts skins get moved around and placed where they obviously fit with other skins that are the same.

And we get the same old rhetoric from the FHA expert in Canada. I wonder why I even waste my time posting.

Over and out.

Not rhetoric at all.
Size grade sometimes can be a judgement call.Some trappers try to make a pelt longer by forming it narrower or gain a size grade on beaver by odd stretching.
Graders discount long noses and narrow pelts just like they bump up a wide stretched pelt one size grade.
They know from handling hundreds of thousands of skins what size grade that pelt belongs in.
Beaver that are odd shape are measured differently than the standard oval formed beaver.
I was there about 10 days ago and watched the beaver grader measuring some odd stretched beaver across diagonal.

Clarity grades on some species like marten are almost impossible to say when looking at one skin.
However when looking at 30 or 40 skins of the same colour in a pile it is easy to match the clarity.
Clarity grades in marten are often intersorted as 1 - 2 and 3-4 to make up big enough lot.
In the lower grades clarity is not broken out.
Very low grades may even have the sections mixed together since the demand is the same=low for all.

Not according to the Canadians

I think a lot of people posting dont know the difference between grading,intrsorting and lotting at the auction house.
Not surprizing since so many US trappers dont have much if any experience with the fur auction compared to Canadian trappers.
I believe only about 20% of US trappers market fur thru the intrnational auction whereas it is around 80% of Canadians who use the auction to market fur.

Boco - please enlighten those of us in the USA as to the difference between grading and inter sorting and lotting.

I’m sure it will be very educational. I’m very much looking forward to reading it. Thanks.

I have explained it as clear as I can several times in this post,if you havent picked up on it by now I expect further explaining will be futile.
In a nutshell a specific grade be it size coulour quality or weight grade will apply to a single pelt.The grade of that pelt will never change.(I have heard trappers ask if their pelts can prime up in the freezer after pelting,lol)
How these grades are intersorted into lots (or intersorted at all) can depend on many things in the industry-fashon trends-(uses of the fur),improvements in dying technology and current values of skins in the market,and numbers of skins in the house collection and the collection itself from year to year or early or late collections.

I haven’t taken the time to read everything posted in this thread. Would you please cut and paste the essential posts. I’m a bit slow when it comes to technical aspects of the fur trade. Your help in understanding the process is much appreciated.

Dont know how to paste.

Interesting. I figured you knew everything.

How about a simple sentence explaining each term. Please use small words that I can easily understand. Thanks

That makes two of us. Must be an affliction that clean skinners get.

I figured you were baiting me but answered truthfully anyway.

Left click and use your cursor to highlight what you want to copy.

Right click and chose copy from the menu box that will magically appear.

Go to wherever it is you want to paste and left click to get the little blinking cursor going.

Right click and chose paste from the magic box.

C'mon fellas, it ain't rocket science or even fur grading.

I suspect you's know how to do this. LOL

I got lost at magic box. I guess I'll survive without ever knowing.

Cut and paste has a short and very definitive procedure. From the length of this thread it appears that fur grading does not.

Bryce

In other words...normal off season bored banter. But I do credit Boco for doing his best to educate us southern heathens to the inner-workings of the Auction House.

Im confused but maybe you can't do it on a cell phone. Im lost at the first few words. What's a click?

Neither is reading……lol
The auction is a steep learning curve and you can’t squeeze it all into to one paragraph. Bocos got a few responses on this page which clarifies (pun intended) things. I’ve got my personal preferences set to the highest number of posts per page, so this thread is only 2 pages on my screen.
A few years ago, his responses would’ve confused me. I reread his answers to my questions while watching my fur go at auction and things come together. It takes some time and reading, you have to want to learn it to pick it up I guess.
I thought Wissmiss was the other auction pro here, you know your stuff. Maybe you only bid online?
If anyone needs a copy of the fur bible, I’ve got an extra copy that I’ll be donating to the auction at the F4WM wolfers summit this August. I tried selling it but nobody wants it……lol. This one actually came from Stillwater WMA, Fallon NV.

Haha, good point. I'm on my PC.

Tap instead of click if you're on a phone?

I currently only bid online due to health issues. But I have attended my share on international auctions in person,
,starting in 1984

I know my way around the auction process - lotting, intersorting, bidding in person and the dreaded “private treaty”. At least I think I do. Boco May disagree.