Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6540903
05/20/19 10:17 AM
05/20/19 10:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,698 Idaho, Lemhi County
Gulo
"On The Other Hand"
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"On The Other Hand"
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,698
Idaho, Lemhi County
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Grandpa -
I can't answer your specific question. I've been working with rattlesnakes in Idaho for over 40 years, and still catch, measure, and release a couple hundred of them every year. All rattlesnakes have more than 1 type of toxin in their venom. Of the two major classes of toxins, neurotoxins are prevalent in most elaphids while hemotoxins are more prevalent in viperids (rattlesnakes). There are exceptions, however. Also, every species of rattlesnake probably has 100 or more different toxins in their venom, potentially leading to a whole host of problems in a bite victim.
With all that said, I do remember hearing many years ago that in Idaho, the northern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) has more potent venom than the prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis). In Idaho, the prairie rattlesnake is only found in Lemhi and Custer Counties, while the pacific rattlesnake is the species that is found in the rest of the state (so your Idaho Falls snakes are Crotalus oreganus). Too, I remember that young snakes have much more potent venom than adults, but, of course, the volume is reduced. Gets pretty complicated.
In my old age, I no longer have the reaction reflexes that I once had, so I no longer catch (by hand) the larger Idaho rattlers. They are simply too strong for me to handle and I worry about losing hold of the head. In thousands of hand-captures (I don't use a snake stick due to injury to the snake), I've only been bit once. That experience was not overly pleasant.
Jack
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6541095
05/20/19 06:11 PM
05/20/19 06:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,174 uniontown pa
gutthooked
trapper
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uniontown pa
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I wouldn't want to get bit by any rattler. One bit from any of them can kill you...
Don't limit your challenges Challenge your limits
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Gulo]
#6541302
05/20/19 11:05 PM
05/20/19 11:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,504 Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
Sharon
"American Honey"
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"American Honey"
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,504
Montana ,Rocky Mtns.
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Grandpa -
I can't answer your specific question. I've been working with rattlesnakes in Idaho for over 40 years, and still catch, measure, and release a couple hundred of them every year. All rattlesnakes have more than 1 type of toxin in their venom. Of the two major classes of toxins, neurotoxins are prevalent in most elaphids while hemotoxins are more prevalent in viperids (rattlesnakes). There are exceptions, however. Also, every species of rattlesnake probably has 100 or more different toxins in their venom, potentially leading to a whole host of problems in a bite victim.
With all that said, I do remember hearing many years ago that in Idaho, the northern pacific rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus) has more potent venom than the prairie rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis). In Idaho, the prairie rattlesnake is only found in Lemhi and Custer Counties, while the pacific rattlesnake is the species that is found in the rest of the state (so your Idaho Falls snakes are Crotalus oreganus). Too, I remember that young snakes have much more potent venom than adults, but, of course, the volume is reduced. Gets pretty complicated.
In my old age, I no longer have the reaction reflexes that I once had, so I no longer catch (by hand) the larger Idaho rattlers. They are simply too strong for me to handle and I worry about losing hold of the head. In thousands of hand-captures (I don't use a snake stick due to injury to the snake), I've only been bit once. That experience was not overly pleasant.
Jack So interesting , Jack....I have to say Im relieved that I haven't needed to be so on guard in the years here in the northwest as I was in Florida. All I want to find is a rubber Boa around here to be happy about ! But thank you for taking the time to explain the amazing details of your studies. I had no idea it is so multi layered and complex. Makes total sense, though. On the surface.....
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6541343
05/21/19 05:15 AM
05/21/19 05:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,617 N. Carolina
Scout1
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N. Carolina
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One thing you experts may be able to answer for some of us woodsmen/women. If your out in the wild, say an hour from your truck, you get bit by a rattler, what's the best course of action? I'm sure it's not to kill the nearest doe deer, extract its liver, cut X's on the bite, suck the venom out, and apply the raw liver. Just always hear different remedies.
------------------------------------- DJT & MTG in 2024!
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6541386
05/21/19 08:36 AM
05/21/19 08:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,889 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
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call ahead to the emergency room so they can get antivenom headed that direction. very few places keep anti venom on hand
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6541389
05/21/19 08:50 AM
05/21/19 08:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,889 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
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P.S. lots of people are scared to death of snakes whether they will admit it or not. if a black snake bites them they are in panic mode. or any other snake. many many non veneomous snakes will bite if you accidently put your hand on them or something. many many people can't tell a timber rattler from a garter snake. a venomous snake bite will leave two clear punctures in the skin. a bite from a black snake for example can cause some very minor bleeding but it will be from multiple holes.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: danny clifton]
#6541400
05/21/19 09:06 AM
05/21/19 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,646 Georgia
warrior
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Georgia
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P.S. lots of people are scared to death of snakes whether they will admit it or not. if a black snake bites them they are in panic mode. or any other snake. many many non veneomous snakes will bite if you accidently put your hand on them or something. many many people can't tell a timber rattler from a garter snake. a venomous snake bite will leave two clear punctures in the skin. a bite from a black snake for example can cause some very minor bleeding but it will be from multiple holes. This is one reason why medical protocols for snake bite stress observation prior to treatment.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Taximan]
#6541584
05/21/19 02:38 PM
05/21/19 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,646 Georgia
warrior
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Actually,potency varies widely among species and even between individuals within species.It can even vary day to day in one individual rattlesnake. More reason why observation is needed. While any individual bite may vary from "dry" to life threatening, adverse reactions to antivenin are known, older versions were notorious for it. Many milder envenomations like copperheads may not require antivenin at all. Though other medications and supportive therapy almost always are.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#6541585
05/21/19 02:41 PM
05/21/19 02:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,402 South Ga - Almost Florida
Swamp Wolf
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A big eastern dback has the capability of injecting nearly an OUNCE of venom during a bite. If that happens you can likely kiss your arse goodbye.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Swamp Wolf]
#6541612
05/21/19 03:25 PM
05/21/19 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,646 Georgia
warrior
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A big eastern dback has the capability of injecting nearly an OUNCE of venom during a bite. If that happens you can likely kiss your arse goodbye. Or count on long term disability and huge medical bills. I was told a story of a guy in your dept that took a hit from one and after sixty something vials had to take medical retirement as the venom destroyed the discs in his back and went round and round with his insurance over a bill that was said to be well over six figures.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: warrior]
#6541678
05/21/19 05:06 PM
05/21/19 05:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132 SWMo.
tjm
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SWMo.
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One thing you experts may be able to answer for some of us woodsmen/women. If your out in the wild, say an hour from your truck, you get bit by a rattler, what's the best course of action? I'm sure it's not to kill the nearest doe deer, extract its liver, cut X's on the bite, suck the venom out, and apply the raw liver. Just always hear different remedies. Seek medical help immediately. No cutting, sucking or touniquets. Keep the victim calm, immobilize the bite if possible and held at the level of the heart, no ice/heat. The idea is to not excite the victim or raise the heart rate. DO NOT attempt to kill/collect the snake or bring it for ID. Secondary bites can occur and ID is not required for treatment. There is one antivenin to treat all north american pit vipers and one for corals. I read this as out here by yourself and you get bitten, the reply is as though your companion was the one bitten. And the advice to call the ER doesn't work in an area far from town. So, self inflicted treatments? (other than Boco's cut and suck)
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: tjm]
#6542144
05/22/19 01:31 PM
05/22/19 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,646 Georgia
warrior
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So how do you get that 3-4 miles back to the truck and then the 40-100 miles to the ER by your self? Knowing what to do when near the hospital and with a crowd doesn't help much. Hiking out and driving are both going to require increased heart rate, even the screaming as you realize what happened is going to elevate your heart rate and increase circulation. Have to assume no cell service either. I remember when I was a working ranch hand riding through sage brush high as a man on a horse and seeing snakes at eye level and thinking what could happen, I have the same thoughts when wade fishing by myself a mile from the truck and observing snakes in over hanging tree limbs. Same as any other in the field medical emergency, HAVE A PLAN. If you know you're out of contact leave a trip plan and eta. Know how to self rescue, travel with others or know how to get rescue alerted and moving in your direction.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344135
08/31/21 10:09 AM
08/31/21 10:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2 SC
SC Gentleman
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This is kind of interesting, though somewhat disputed: http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...esnake-study-provides-clue/#.YS4v9Y5KhhF . I have come across a-lot of venomous snakes in my time in the woods. For the most part, they tend to avoid me. The only time I was every threatened was by a copperhead last fall around dusk. I was walking out on a 'trail' (not really a trail, but where I usually walk) in early December in Georgia. It was hard to see, but the unmistakable rustling in the leaves caught my attention. At first not sure what it was, I just stopped in my tracks. Eventually, I put my headlamp on the noise and could see a copperhead about 6 to 8 feet away striking toward me. I have never seen a snake attempt to strike from that far away and there is no way it could have struck me from that far away. I assume it was feigning. That time of year, snakes are starting to hibernate in Georgia and they often do it with many other snakes, even different species. Some species that they would normally be enemies of. I could see a little hole in the ground and I was unsure of how many more snakes might be there or close by. It was a little tense getting out of there as dark settled in and I had no choice but to walk by. I have been told that Timber Rattlesnakes are generally considered to be the most dangerous because of the amount of venom they can deliver, not because of their aggressiveness, likelihood to bite or potency of the venom. To be sure, you don't want to be bit by any venomous snake. I have stumbled across more timber rattlesnakes than any other kind and they have always been hospitable. That said, I also try not to get within striking distance, generally considered to be 1/3 to 1/2 of their body length. I stay the entire body length away and watch for any signs that it might try to move into a striking position. Timber rattlers always try to move away in my experience. The same with cottonmouths, they try to avoid me. In fact, I nearly picked up a cottonmouth one time thinking it was a stick and it just slithered away. I was shocked. Most copperheads that I have come across are not aggressive, but they also stand their ground. They have not looked to me like they were trying to escape. The most aggressive snake I have some across was a little 18 inch garter snake. That little guy lifted his whole body off the ground to try to strike me. Not sure what he/she was thinking. Black rat snakes are very friendly, black racers try to get away and they are fast. One time, I had a racer cornered and it was starting to get aggressive. I was simply filming it, but it didn't like my presence for sure.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344225
08/31/21 12:10 PM
08/31/21 12:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,674 OK
Aaron Proffitt
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Interesting thread ...and good info.
Honor a Soldier. Be the kind of American worth fighting for.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344243
08/31/21 12:33 PM
08/31/21 12:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,695 ND
MJM
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A search brought up this: The venom of a Mojave rattlesnake is widely considered the most potent of all rattlesnakes. I saw them in AZ. We called them Mojave greens. My brother in law got bit in the back by a rattlesnake that he had baled in a round baler the night before. He didn't know it was in the bale, and when he was greasing the baler in the morning he got bite. His wife drove him to the hospital in Gt Falls MT and they did not give him anti venom. They said it was as hard on a person as the venom was. The hospital did nothing. He was in pretty sad shape for a while and he had some problems for quite a while.
"Not Really, Not Really" Mark J Monti "MJM you're a jerk."
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: MJM]
#7344268
08/31/21 01:07 PM
08/31/21 01:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,146 NC
Buzzard
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A search brought up this: The venom of a Mojave rattlesnake is widely considered the most potent of all rattlesnakes. I saw them in AZ. We called them Mojave greens. My brother in law got bit in the back by a rattlesnake that he had baled in a round baler the night before. He didn't know it was in the bale, and when he was greasing the baler in the morning he got bite. His wife drove him to the hospital in Gt Falls MT and they did not give him anti venom. They said it was as hard on a person as the venom was. The hospital did nothing. He was in pretty sad shape for a while and he had some problems for quite a while. I have read that several times
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344321
08/31/21 02:29 PM
08/31/21 02:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 21,049 St. Louis Co, Mo
BigBob
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Per Google: CDC says rarely more than 4 deaths a year in the US from Rattler bites.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: BigBob]
#7344329
08/31/21 02:40 PM
08/31/21 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,646 Georgia
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Per Google: CDC says rarely more than 4 deaths a year in the US from Rattler bites. True, actual fatalities rare. Long term damage a very definite possibility with our more toxic species.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344345
08/31/21 03:01 PM
08/31/21 03:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
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elkaholic
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If you are in cell range, call 911. If you're 3 miles back in at least it will get the ambulance headed your way. All ER's have radios in them. So when they hear that call go out they can start preparing the antivenom. It's refrigerated so it needs to be warmed before administering. My wife has told me of times that they have had 5 or 6 people standing in the er rolling the vials between their hands to get it warmed.
Make your way out as fast as possible without getting your heart rate up to much. It only takes about 60 seconds for blood to circulate through the human body. So sucking venom is absolutely useless. If you make it out before the ambulance arrives you can wait if they're not that far away. If you have another person with you, you can start towards the ambulance. Notify 911 that you are doing so. The sooner you get to the hospital the better off you'll be.
Some people have really bad reactions to the anti venom. I think she said it's an anaphylactic type reaction in a lot of people.
Millions of trees die every year to print environmentalist publications
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344399
08/31/21 04:17 PM
08/31/21 04:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,832 central arkansas
the Blak Spot
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Seems i vaguely remember readin in Klauber's books on rattlesnakes that volume to volume western diamond was the most potent. Those were thick books and read long ago, so dont quote me.
the just shall live by faith
member FTA, ATA, EAFT 1776 - the year we told a tyrant we weren't to be under a dictator Caveat ater macula
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: Grandpa Trapper]
#7344420
08/31/21 04:35 PM
08/31/21 04:35 PM
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Joined: May 2013
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J.Morse
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Had a taxidermy customer of mine that was bitten by a Pygmy Rattler once when he lived down in Florida. It nailed him on the end of his pinky as he was unlocking a padlock chaining a rowboat to a tree. He said it felt more like a bee sting. He went to the ER and they said just to keep an eye on it. His finger swelled all up, the tip turned black and after a few days part of the tip sorta sloughed off. That was about it. He pummeled the serpent at the time it happened and took it to the ER with him. He gave the snake to me (it was in a mason jar in alcohol) and I had it on display in my showroom for years.
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Re: Comparing rattlesnake venom
[Re: tjm]
#7345188
09/01/21 02:24 PM
09/01/21 02:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,674 OK
Aaron Proffitt
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I remember when I was a working ranch hand riding through sage brush high as a man on a horse and seeing snakes at eye level and thinking what could happen, I have the same thoughts when wade fishing by myself a mile from the truck and observing snakes in over hanging tree limbs.
That's the stuff nightmares are made of .
Honor a Soldier. Be the kind of American worth fighting for.
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