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Re: Young cedars [Re: run] #7695221
10/18/22 07:12 PM
10/18/22 07:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 165
Central Wisconsin
C
Craig S. Offline
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Craig S.  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 165
Central Wisconsin
Originally Posted by run
I got the distinct feeling that we are talking about 2 different species of cedar. We have red cedar in my neighborhood. Nastiest weed tree on the planet so bad paper mills won't take it for pulp. I don't know much about white cedar. Somehow I think there's a difference. Just my 2 cents.


Yes you are correct- two different trees entirely . northern white cedar is “arborvitae “ in Latin which translated to “ tree of life” . The needles of white cedar are high in vitamin c. Its said that is got its name tree of life as sailors who had went many months without fresh vegetables or fruits were able to boil a tea from the needles and save themselves from scurvy which is a disease caused by a lack of vitamin C.

Eastern red cedar or “juniperis americanus “ and is altogether different from northern white cedar and western red cedar . It is actually a member of the juniper family and is not a true member of the cedar family in spite of its common name. Eastern Red cedar is considered a nuisance in the west as it is a moisture hog that outcompetes native grasses and can quickly take over pasture lands .

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7695228
10/18/22 07:21 PM
10/18/22 07:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 165
Central Wisconsin
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Craig S. Offline
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Central Wisconsin
Well I looked it up and I stand corrected- what I meant to say above was arborvitae is another common name for Northern white cedar. The Latin or scientific name is actually “thuja occidentalis”
And the scientific name for Eastern red cedar is juniperis Virginiana… two different species none the less.

Dang I guess my memory ain’t quite what it once was.. blush

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7695284
10/18/22 08:21 PM
10/18/22 08:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,797
Greene County,Virginia
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Greene County,Virginia
Craig S. Thank you for breaking it down.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7695366
10/18/22 09:30 PM
10/18/22 09:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,081
NW MO
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TurkeyTime Offline
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NW MO
Eastern red cedar around here aren't choosy about the land they grow on, poor or good. I have planted several in the yard for wind breaks. As they are native they take hold and grow well. Deer leave them alone other than if a buck decides it's the right one to rub on. Easy to kill as no chemical is needed and they won't re-sprout if cut off below the lowest branch.

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7695378
10/18/22 09:37 PM
10/18/22 09:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,220
SE NEBRASKA
NebrCatMan Offline
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SE NEBRASKA
Here in my neck of the woods in SE Nebraska back in the late 1800s and very early 1900s the area my grandparents homesteaded was pretty void of eastern red cedar. So much as that my Grandpa and his brother in law drove a Model T truck.......(a 1917 model..., maybe wrong year) about 100 to 140 miles east and would get a truck load of cerdar seedlings out of the hills along the Missouri River. Came back and planted windbreaks and fence lines. Kinda cool Grandpa would tell me the story. Fast forward now 120 years. Red Cedar CAN be a noxious weed as it takes over pastures and anywhere else it grows and turns them into non producing junk acres. It's a constant fight trying to clear and keep clean pastures and fence lines, waterways, etc. They can be a good thing and can be just the opposite !!


Remember "Forbidden Fruit makes many Jams"
Re: Young cedars [Re: DWC] #7695426
10/18/22 10:10 PM
10/18/22 10:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,545
NC, Orange Co.
QuietButDeadly Offline
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NC, Orange Co.
Originally Posted by DWC
They used to pay farmers to remove them around here. Some giant scissors that attached to the front of a bobcat can take out a lot in a hurry. The place I turkey hunt in NE has had 1000’s taken out. Makes it easier to see the birds but also killed the sneak for us. Used to be able to sneak up on a strutter with some wind to cover you as you can get away with a ton of movement. Making a turkey to gobble from a few feet is a rush.

The prairie pastures where I turkey hunted in NE had lots of cedars of all sizes. Not sure they are eastern reds though. Those trees had limbs starting at ground level and they were the longest with the next limbs shorter so the tree was shaped like a cone. They were great cover for us to be able to move on birds when we needed to. But the farmer clipped all the bigger ones with a bobcat and eventually piled and burned them. We helped with the little ones, chopping them off at ground level when we were out there turkey hunting. As long as they were less than an inch in diameter, they were fairly easy to deal with and they would not come back from the root. But the birds kept spreading seed from the mature trees in the big windbreak so it was a never ending job.

And the folks that manage public land in NE and KS have cleared many acres of these invasive cedars over the years that we have hunted out there.

Here is what we call an eastern red cedar and it is not the same as what we saw in NE and KS.
[Linked Image]


Life Member: NCTA, VTA, NTA, TTFHA, MFTI
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Re: Young cedars [Re: QuietButDeadly] #7695486
10/18/22 10:58 PM
10/18/22 10:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,292
East-Central Wisconsin
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bblwi Offline
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East-Central Wisconsin
Until the dairy farming changed to its current production model, cedars made outstanding fence posts and there were many cedar swamps around here to harvest them.

Bryce

Re: Young cedars [Re: run] #7695524
10/18/22 11:37 PM
10/18/22 11:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,007
WI - Wisconsin
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AJE Offline OP
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Originally Posted by run
I got the distinct feeling that we are talking about 2 different species of cedar. We have red cedar in my neighborhood. Nastiest weed tree on the planet so bad paper mills won't take it for pulp. I don't know much about white cedar. Somehow I think there's a difference. Just my 2 cents.

The cedar around here is prized, but hard to find. I think it's red cedar. They are so hard to grow that I think part of the reason people find them so neat is b/c of how rare they are. I'd say it might be a stretch to say that 1% of them survive the deer.

Last edited by AJE; 10/18/22 11:45 PM.
Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7696825
10/20/22 07:23 PM
10/20/22 07:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,007
WI - Wisconsin
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AJE Offline OP
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I don't like the ones that are arbor vitae. Personal preference perhaps.

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7696916
10/20/22 08:59 PM
10/20/22 08:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,797
Greene County,Virginia
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Greene County,Virginia
Traditionally farmers in Virginia, at least in my area used locust posts for fencing. I am not sure our cedar grow big enough to make good fence posts. They look a bit sickly and they grow in acidic soil that has been neglected. I'm simply sharing my 2 cents not an authority by any stretch. I wish the deer would eat them up. The only use I have found is grinding them for poultry bedding. Carry on, I have enjoyed this thread so far.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7696923
10/20/22 09:03 PM
10/20/22 09:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,797
Greene County,Virginia
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Greene County,Virginia
I get confused when I read the Bible and it talks about the cedars of Lebanon. I think this juniper / eastern red cedar doesn't even make good firewood. The branches are so tight together, you waste a lot of time delimbing it.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Young cedars [Re: run] #7698368
10/23/22 02:09 AM
10/23/22 02:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,750
Southern Virginia, 50 yr old
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VaBeagler Offline
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Southern Virginia, 50 yr old
Originally Posted by run
I got the distinct feeling that we are talking about 2 different species of cedar. We have red cedar in my neighborhood. Nastiest weed tree on the planet so bad paper mills won't take it for pulp. I don't know much about white cedar. Somehow I think there's a difference. Just my 2 cents.

You are spot on. Red cedar here in southern virginia. Grows like a weed in crappy land unless you let it grow for 25 years for a fence post. Worthless.

Re: Young cedars [Re: run] #7698369
10/23/22 02:11 AM
10/23/22 02:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,750
Southern Virginia, 50 yr old
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Southern Virginia, 50 yr old
Originally Posted by run
I get confused when I read the Bible and it talks about the cedars of Lebanon. I think this juniper / eastern red cedar doesn't even make good firewood. The branches are so tight together, you waste a lot of time delimbing it.


Our juniper is a ground running cedar that stays short but runs wide.

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7698416
10/23/22 06:57 AM
10/23/22 06:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 253
IA
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ozark trapper ia Offline
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IA
Red cedars make great fence post. The oldtimers used to split them length wise and get 3-4 post per tree. Those post would last 40 years easy. Deer will browse them hear in a real bad winter so will rabbits and turkey and pheasants get alot of use from them. They are great trees for wildlife in small patches scattered around.

Re: Young cedars [Re: ozark trapper ia] #7701743
10/27/22 01:18 AM
10/27/22 01:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,007
WI - Wisconsin
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WI - Wisconsin
Originally Posted by ozark trapper ia
Red cedars .. They are great trees for wildlife in small patches scattered around.
this seems to be what I've been observing on my property

Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7707293
11/02/22 09:49 PM
11/02/22 09:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,007
WI - Wisconsin
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WI - Wisconsin
Sometimes I wonder if it's the smell that attracts deer

Re: Young cedars [Re: QuietButDeadly] #7707303
11/02/22 09:56 PM
11/02/22 09:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,783
MN
1
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MN
Originally Posted by QuietButDeadly
Originally Posted by DWC
They used to pay farmers to remove them around here. Some giant scissors that attached to the front of a bobcat can take out a lot in a hurry. The place I turkey hunt in NE has had 1000’s taken out. Makes it easier to see the birds but also killed the sneak for us. Used to be able to sneak up on a strutter with some wind to cover you as you can get away with a ton of movement. Making a turkey to gobble from a few feet is a rush.

The prairie pastures where I turkey hunted in NE had lots of cedars of all sizes. Not sure they are eastern reds though. Those trees had limbs starting at ground level and they were the longest with the next limbs shorter so the tree was shaped like a cone. They were great cover for us to be able to move on birds when we needed to. But the farmer clipped all the bigger ones with a bobcat and eventually piled and burned them. We helped with the little ones, chopping them off at ground level when we were out there turkey hunting. As long as they were less than an inch in diameter, they were fairly easy to deal with and they would not come back from the root. But the birds kept spreading seed from the mature trees in the big windbreak so it was a never ending job.

And the folks that manage public land in NE and KS have cleared many acres of these invasive cedars over the years that we have hunted out there.

Here is what we call an eastern red cedar and it is not the same as what we saw in NE and KS.
[Linked Image]


That appears to be a Western Red Cedar, a member of the Juniper family. The Eastern White Cedar is completely different and with the exception of idiots like me that raise, plant and fence them will be extinct where I like in 25 years. They are critical whitetail deer winter habitat and make BEAUTIFUL lumber that lasts forever. I have 100's of hours raising, planting and caging them.


I have nothing clever to put here.





Re: Young cedars [Re: VaBeagler] #7707314
11/02/22 10:06 PM
11/02/22 10:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Posts: 25,424
Georgia
Originally Posted by VaBeagler
If you have cedars that is a sure Tell sign of shitty land. Land will not perk. Cedars thrive in pipeclay and crappy land


Not so. While they do thrive on clay and alkaline soils that is because those soils often lie over impermeable chalk. But impermeable chalk can also promote deeper black muck prairie soils such as the black belt of Alabama that made cotton king.

The difference between the two is fire. Fire burns off the cedar and builds soil. Take away fire and the soil degrades and cedar takes over.


[Linked Image]
Re: Young cedars [Re: run] #7707320
11/02/22 10:14 PM
11/02/22 10:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by run
I get confused when I read the Bible and it talks about the cedars of Lebanon. I think this juniper / eastern red cedar doesn't even make good firewood. The branches are so tight together, you waste a lot of time delimbing it.


There are a wide range of conifers called cedar that are not true cedars, including both our white and red cedars. Neither of which are related to each other.
Red cedar, the eastern one is a juniper and also unrelated to our western red cedar which is also not a true cedar.

And you are correct eastern red is poor firewood though it does burn extremely well. It burns hot and fast.


[Linked Image]
Re: Young cedars [Re: AJE] #7707324
11/02/22 10:19 PM
11/02/22 10:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,424
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
Down here red cedars are preferred by the bucks for making rubs. It's not uncommon for every broom handle sized stem in sight to rubbed. I've suspect there's something to the aromatics in the sap and wood carrying the aroma from the preobital glands.

Maybe one of our lure makers could chime in on that theory?


[Linked Image]
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