But aren't there conditions set on salvation? Repentance and faith. We're commanded to repent and believe, those aren't options. I've seen some who claim unbelievers can be driven away through discussions such as this. I don't see how it's possible. The Lamb's book of life was written before the foundation of the world. It's fixed and Christ will lose none.

Ohio, I was responding to your comment, saying Islam is the only religion to preach killing unbeliever. So what is killing heretics. And you said, quote! You can say Christians , in the old testament. I was just stating the fact that there where no Christions in the old testament. I was in know way defending radical Islam, as I will not defend any radical religion that promotes killing peaple thet believe differently than they do. And to you questions the answer is yes , and I'm pretty sure I'm awake but most definitely not woke lol. I understand there's alot of evil in the world and the deceiver is a master of dividing peaple especially in the name of religion.
Rich

This is why I don't go to church

Ok trapper7 I'm going to put my previous goal of eviscerating the false Israel church separation on pause and use the Bible to prove that people who do not believe in a biblical catching away are most likely unsaved and those who teach it are most likely reprobate.

So strap in, cuz now I'm exited

Now to first respond to what you said I'll say this
I know plenty of people who believe dispensationalism that are not reprobates, but I don't know of any people who teach dispensationalism that are saved. I know that both Darby and Schofield are burning in H3!! And I can prove it with one scripture from the Bible if you know anything about their writings and teachings. If you don't then it's doesn't matter what Bible verse I share with you because you need to understand what they have done to realize their spiritual condition.

Don't for a second believe that Bible doctrine of any kind is a minor issue. We as Christians are to always defend the faith and preach the gospel. Just as Jesus did and his disciples they had to combat the false doctrine of their time in order to break the people's minds free from the cognitive dissonance of the Pharisees, priest, and Scribes. He did this by questioning these groups in front of the people and allowing the people to see how weak and shallow their responses were. It works.

Your comment about coming to Jesus as a child is great, I agree children don't know enough to get involved with the complications and receive the gospel at a much higher rate than adults who have made up their minds. It's a great thing to lead a child to Christ. But a babe is Christ doesn't have to be a child. There are babes in Christ in every church in America that are older than 50 because this has to do with the type of doctrine they know and understand and can digest. I am not a babe is Christ so I don't approach false doctrine as one. I would hope that the Bible that have shared will edify anyone who reads it.

So now I will show you what the Bible says about those who don't believe in the biblical catching away. Take out of this what you choose.

The Bible is clear on the coming of the Lord that the saints cannot be deceived by the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be d@mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Verse number..
1-2) Paul is telling the Thessalonians how they should not be deceived as if the Day of Christ is at hand because something has to happen first. We covered what this things are in the previous post but in verse (3) he sums it up as "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first", saying again not to be deceived by any man.
This is a very clear reference to the tribulation, and the Antichrist that makes war with the saints. If you don't believe that then read verse 4
4) verse 4 teaches who it is that will come FIRST and it is a man that will attempt to sit in the temple of God and shew himself to be God. This is the Antichrist
5) Paul explains that he already told them this
6) Paul tells them what is now preventing the day of the Lord, and that is that the Antichrist has not yet been revealed.
7) Paul explains that the mystery of iniquity is already at work on the Earth, and that this will continue until the Antichrist is taken out of the way.
8) and then when Jesus Christ comes back(brightness of his coming) the Antichrist will be destroyed with the spirit of his mouth. Okay this means the word of God the sword of the spirit the fact that God opens his mouth and destroys all of those who stand against him( see Rev 19:15,and 21).
9) once again a reference to the Antichrist that is destroyed because he comes with power and signs and lying wonders claiming that he is Christ.
10) and he also destroys all of those that are deceivable and unrighteous because they receive not the love of truth that they might be saved.
11) because they received not the love of the truth God sends them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie, this why is dispensationalism in today's modern times, this lie is believing in a pre-trib rapture because whenever you do that the first person to come is the Antichrist as the Bible says in second Thessalonians 2.

So if the Antichrist comes first who then do you believe is taking you to heaven?

Remember God gave them the strong delusion God turned them over to believe a lie God gave them up.

Why? Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because they chose not to believe the gospel.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So what is the result of not believing the gospel and being sent a strong delusion that they would believe a lie?

Verse 12.. that they all might be d@mned who believe not the truth.

So the scripture that Paul gives to the Thessalonians after he discussed in 1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 about how they know the order of the end times and should be comforted in the fact that the saved people they know will be resurrected by Christ, is teaching them that the people who don't understand this will eventually be d@mned.

And this is why that is true because the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ paid for all of the sins of every person on the planet, and that when they believe on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that they KNOW not only that they have eternal life because Jesus did promise that, but that they hear his voice and they will know the difference between Jesus and the antichrist. In a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine the only person that will show up first is the Antichrist and the pre-tribulationist believe that they will be raptured out before the tribulation. so when they see the Antichrist come and sit in the throne of God in the temple of God showing himself that he is God who do you think they're going to believe?

It's so simple even my kids can understand this.

So be p!ssy if you want. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believeth to the Jew first and to the Greek.

and I am not ashamed that I know the Bible well enough to be able to combat these horse feathers false doctrines that are being pushed on mankind today. I am truly sorry that you have been sucked into this but am I therefore your enemy for because I tell you the truth?

This is MY EXCUSE why I don't go to church

Unfortunately, you come across as if you don't believe this doctrine is false, you are doomed to eternal punishment. You make that your primary objective when compared to true faith, it's petty. That's the point I was trying to make. I see it as legalism. It sets conditions on your salvation. Jesus said we are to come to Him as children. Children don't understand complication.

It's like some who feel if you're not a Baptist or a Catholic, or a Methodist, you can't be saved. Ridiculous!

There are Christians. There are non-Christians. There are those who are on the fence and are neither. When they see this bickering over a minor issue that has nothing to do with faith and salvation, they are repulsed. I know of such people. I wouldn't want them to see these exchanges.

Same JS as those who have decided - by the authority of people - that Jesus' ordination of the Church (chronicled in the Book of Acts) isn't needed. Quick Prayerism as it's known has found it's home in the West in the last 70 years, more so since Covid...
when in fact, according to our Lord's recorded words in Scripture, these stay at home thesis promoters forget that these would be a “church” without pastors, elders and deacons, without baptism, without the Lord’s Supper, without prayer meetings and without discipline. It is a “congregation” that never congregates.

It'd sure be hard to get someone to bring you James 5:13-16 at your death bed if we dismiss the Lord's commissioning of His Church (for us until His return).

Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.


Blessings,
Mark

I take it the stay at home thesis promoters is a jab at Ken .

Rick thanks for the back up. I appreciate it!

Trapper7, 1 John 5:13 is on of my favorite verses. So that verse is great for teaching people that salvation is only by grace through faith and that when a person is saved they know they will go to heaven no matter what.

Now to the topic of repentance that you spoke about. Repentance is necessary for salvation because a person can't believe in a false gospel and the true Gospel. You can't serve two masters. But repentance is not defined properly in modern times. Often when you hear someone talk about repentance they use the phrase "repent of your sins" this prepositional phrase "of sin" is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible defines repentance as to turn.
So if I believed in Buddha and heard the gospel preached to me I would have to turn away from my false god and repent or turn to the one true God which is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, God the Father of the only begotten Son. This is biblical repentance.

Teaching repentance of sin as a requirement for salvation is blasphemous against the gospel and not in the Bible. But the Bible does touch on the subject in Jonah chapter 3 and teaches that turning from your evil way is a work. And salvation is without works lest any man should boast.

Jonah 3:9-10 KJV
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Notice how it also defines repent as to turn. And if you look the term repent up in the Bible then it is apparent that most of the times it's used God is the one repenting. If repentance means to turn your from sin then that would make God a sinner. He is not. God is righteous and just and never could sin.

So this brings me to your comment about me making judgments. And to that sir you are drastically wrong, and a little right too. I'll explain... The Bible clearly commands all saints to judge, but a righteous judgement is one that is God's written judgment. So God already has the judgment written, it is the honour of the saints to exercise this judgment and get justice. This is why I don't stray from the Bible. I'll show you 5 passages below and you can judge for yourself wither these things be true.

The command-

Leviticus 19:15 KJV
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

The honour-

Psalm 149:6-9 KJV
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
[7] To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
[8] To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
[9] To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

Jesus' setting the record straight-

Matthew 7:1-6 KJV
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Notice he is instructing those to be upright in order to make a righteous judgment.

Next is Jesus scolding the Pharisees for not doing judgment. Don't be a pharisee learn to do righteous judgment.

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Just a few verses after this Jesus calls the Pharisees "Whited sepulcher" because they are clean on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones. I mean Jesus was a hardcore defender of the true wasn't he. I want to be like that.

Finally we have Paul scolding the Corinthians for the same thing and explaining to them that even the least among them, you know the babe is Christ is prepared to judge the judgments written.


1 Corinthians 6:2-5 KJV
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
[4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?


So I'll end this by saying that I am commanded to judge by God. Who is any man to tell me different?

So you are of the crowd that believes in predestination? That everything that happens has already been determined by God? If so, then faith is worthless. If you truly believe, you can't help not be repentant.

As far as driving unbelievers away: I teach firearm safety. In MN they estimate that 10% of the population are hunters. 10% are anti-hunting. The other 80% are neutral.
If hunters were to dump carcasses in a ditch, or leave garbage in a Wildlife Management Area, or have some deer tied to their car in public view, and one of the 80% were to see these things, how do you think they would feel about hunters and hunting? It's the same when all this petty arguing takes place regarding salvation.

Mathew 7:13-14