Ran across this video and thought it was interesting. I know there's some big time bench rest shooters that are members here. What are your thoughts?




Ol dad

I'm no expert and I've watched the video and thinks it probably spot one. Or I have bad luck with rifles. I know everyone else's rifles all shot one hole but that's not my experience, at least if I shot more than one shot.
In last 2 years I've bought a Tikka and a Vanguard. Both new and I believe both have a 1 moa guarantee.
Tikka I tried 4 different quality ammos right from the start. Best ammo was 1 1/4 others around 2. Bedded the action with not much change. I then fully bedded barrel and now it's pretty much 3/4 to 1 1/4 with everything I've shot out of it as far as factory ammo and I've shot 4" groups several times ar 750 yds. The Vanguard I started with Remington core lokts and it was over 2 moa from start. I bedded action on it and it got down to around 1 1/2. I then fully bedded barrel and it got down to under 1 moa. It will consistently shoot several factory load 3/4 or under and all factory loads I've put through at 1 or less.
That's my limited experience.

Stock 788 Remington, 6mm; 1/2" group at 200 yards. All day long.

Anybody want to put money against it? Accepting offers.




Charlie

All true. Yes, I've got a rifle that will shoot sub-minute groups .....Till it doesn't..... If the wind is down, if I've not had too much coffee, if all the planets are aligned just right, it will generally shoot under a minute.
And that rifle, is not the 30-30 Winchester I usually hunt deer with.

Been millions of game animals shoot with 3, 4, 5+ minute rifles. Or shotgun slugs.

Am reminded of this set of videos posted by Wolfie last year. Remember these were NOT about the 6.5.......it is about rifles that "need-more". Documents what they got with a pair of factory rifles, and what they did to them to enhance accuracy. Same barrels and actions (may have eventually swapped triggers, can't remember). But were eventually improved with some effort. Shooters were not a limiting factor. And yes, in later videos they botched the test, but that is another story.



I have a book that is all about taking average shooting stock hunting rifles.......basic 1.5 MOA guns and getting them down to 1/2" MOA or better. Basically the same thing that EC and buddy did above. Book covers all that Yes Sir mentions and more, but one of the major steps is to bed the action and free float the barrel. And not just any old bed job, but very VERY specific set of instructions on how. So while many rifles can be made accurate, not many actually are coming out of the box as the steps needed to get them there were not done at the factory. Single easiest step to get there if gun is up to it is custom hand loaded ammo.

Other takeaway is on the OP video, what he is basically saying is the warranties on rifles are just as bogus as warranties on most products. And they can make those claims knowing 99.9% of buyers will never make a claim, and have weasel clauses if they do.

I say it all the time..........

Everyone has a "1 holer" until you take them to a bench rest match, lol.

Interesting, my wife would take that $50 any day of the week with her Winchester 270.
My 788 22-250 would also probably take that $50 most days

If you guys wanted to come to Marion I'd take all three $50 bets on the 1/2 groups at 200 yds. 5 groups of 5 shots. If we are talking factory rifles.

Factory rifle...factory ammo...200 yards...1/2" groups....

....hmmm!!

3 rounds is a lot easier to get than a 5 , sample size

also match grade ammo is seldom what anyone is actually using for hunting

the manufacture can also lock the action in a machine rest to get there or wait 10 minutes between shots

3inches was considered good when I was a kid anything under that will keep you in venison all the time

I know a lot of people are like sub , sub , sub moa they like to throw that around but it is based on 3 round groups typically

I guess I would get more excited about a 10 round 1.25 moa gun and hunting ammo combo witch is actually a 1.30" group at 100 yards center to center

Absolutely.

Remington 100 grain core lock bullets. That was in the mid 70s. The new Remington ammo, probably not so much.



Charlie

I will add another 788 6mm to that bet. It shoots better than I can. It's not hard to put two bullets in the same hole out of three shots.

5 shots not 3. There are guys and maybe a gal or to 2 that can make it look easy but I guarantee it ain't easy.
But there is a certain amount of luck in any equation so you do have that maybe.

i got 2 that will do it one a Remington .222 and a 6.5 grendel but I did build the grendel.

Got 4 here that will take his money

Custom rifle...handloads....200yds...1/2" groups...

Yep.

We talking freehand or vice. If vice count me in. Factory Ruger and Silvertips in .280 will cloverleaf.

My daughter's 700 in 7mm-08 will with cheap burris full field 2 and Hornady north American whitetail hunting ammo.

Enter level left handed rifle cheap scope and factory hunting ammo. I did have a SAS tomb (thread over muzzle break installed before I gave it to her on her 9th birthday so my SAS Arbiter could be mounted on it an shoot suppressed.

I bought the Hornady to get brass because I couldn't find any at the time. Figured I would zero it and she could shoot it all up practicing and I would load some good ammo for her to hunt with.

Turned out it shoots so well I couldn't improve on the accuracy enough to bother hand loading for it out to 300 yards anyway. Never shot it further than that.

I have a semi custom in 260 that I used to shoot .4 often less with. Have not shot that gun in about 10 years.

I think what the guy in the video is trying to say is that it's more of an anomaly than the standard to get a factory rifle to shoot MOA. It's misleading for the manufacturer to make that claim. An average shooter shouldn't expect to get MOA, nor be disappointed when they don't.

Ol' dad

I would bet more on the rifles ability than the average shooters ability to be able to shoot said rifle. But no not all rifles will do so. If you get one that won't shoot get rid of it and try another. Messing around with it you will quickly spend more on ammo, but more importantly for me is time. I don't have time to wast in a rifle to get it to shoot.

A lot of new rifles will shoot moa if you do your part and have the ammo it likes.

Where he's keeping his money is making them shoot 5 shot groups. 3 shot groups don't tell the tale, and that's what everyone goes off of. Shoot 5, or 10 ,or 20 shot strings... and that'll separate the wheat from the chaff.

I go to the local rifle range often.
I look at other people's groups at 100 yards.
I'd say the Vast majority i see are 2_3" groups.
Seldom ,(like almost never) do I see a group under 1".
Unless it's mine

I think he was providing the ammo and rifle also , making a much safer bet for him.

Well then that would be a sucker's bet, I was born on a dark night but not last night.

If u guys are talking about my offer I have no idea why u think I'm talking about using my guns. That would b foolish

This pretty much sums it. Some people have good days at the range, but they ain't all good days.

I have been fortunate by the sound of it. I’m very happy with most of my rifles and their accuracy. I have some custom made, and others of course.
At the range I use a weighted customized lead sled and have things strapped in good. Doing my best to remove pilot error. Leaving the customs out:

My Tikkas surpass the the factory promises.
Husqvarna surpasses.
Remingtons, 700’s and 721’s surpasses. 721 is a laser.
Rugers surpass. In fact a .223 American predator model someone here suggested is a true one holer.
My Sako’s are excellent.
Kimber is very good.
Any of these I would take to a challenge, if shot as noted above.

These are the ones I use most so I keep a sharp interest in them. Again, locked down, dead calm and temp steady conditions, barrel not overheated. Premium factory ammo generally a ballistic tip boat tail variety. I do not reload.

“I don’t always hit what I aim at, but when I do, I’m happy.”

Osky

Fair disclosure, I have had rifles in the past I sent down the road due to inaccuracy.

From the "one more thing" files........

Was in "the office" this morning and while passing the time latched on to some literature laying around. In this case, the 2022 Hodgdon reloading guide. Among other things was an article that meant to discuss outcomes one might expect from the three different 4350 powders sold under the Hodgdon banner. IMR 4350, H4350 and A4350.

But that wasn't caught my eye. It was the group sizes..........three powders, three different high end rifles in three different calibers, using high end components like Lapua brass, and presumably shot with a competent and experienced hand on the trigger.

I was consistently beating that with my 50 year old Rem 700 and considered my efforts a failure. Perspective.

My Mossberg .243 is PPA @ 100yds! That's Pie Plate Accuracy.

Sold a blueprinted 700 in 280AI, with Shilen 26” match barrel that would do it sometimes. Rifle was too heavy for an old man to carry. Got a 700 in 7-08 that does it on good days. Probably couldn’t do it often enough to make a profit on your gamble.

I’m a gunsmith for a large firearm manufacture whose name I won’t mention but he talks about them in this video. After shooting 100s of rifles on the range (we do all testing shooting off bags on a bench) I will say most rifles shoot better than who is doing the shooting. Each make and model will have a load they like and that is what the manufacture is going to use for testing, some customers don’t want to hear their rifle shots good with an ammo they don’t like or can’t find. Most of the sub MOA issues come from the shooter.

Can't speak for other customers, but if the guys making the rifles know what ammo works best, I'd certainly like to know too.....whatever it is.

There are some rifles that are sold with a proof target included. Would be nice if they all did that, along with note on what ammo was used to shoot it.

Buy a highend rifle and they do. Your average rifle manufacturer will not. Us poor folks have to figure it out on our own, or do some research.

We have a proof target with each new rifle and a copy of the target we shoot with ammo information if the rifle comes in for an accuracy issue.

Thanks for posting! It's nice to have someone with first-hand knowledge talking here.

You didn't really say in your comments, but does your company guarantee the rifles (all models) they manufacture to shoot moa accuracy?

Ol dad

Yes we do have a moa guarantee, it is with a 3 shot group.

So, if a factory rifle comes with a target with a 3" group, you gonna buy it?

If a Rem,Sako,Tikka ect rep shoots a rifle and it shoots 1.5" , what do the do with it?

Answer to question #1. No.
Answer to question #2. I don't care. That is their problem. They are the ones who allowed their marketing department to put them in this bad spot.

I don't own a gun that will consistently shoot sub MOA, could be because I'm not capable.

I do know one thing for sure, when I started to ditch factory triggers my accuracy went up exponentially.

I have a Ruger Model 77, .300 WM, that will shoot 3/8" hundred-yard groups-- when conditions are right. That means the right load (180-grain Nosler Partition, IMR 4350 - 70.0 grains), the right weather, I haven't drank too much coffee, and my shooting is inspired that day. Yes, the rifle does have a trigger job, but no other modifications.

I own other rifles that aren't as accurate that will usually shoot around 1.5" groups--when conditions are right.

Those who say rifles will usually shoot better than the shooter are correct.

Jim

1/2” group at 200 yards is 1/4 MOA.

Just sayin’.

Consistency of that type, if legit, is pretty darn impressive considering most custom makers won’t guarantee anything under 1/2 MOA.



I had a stock Rem 700 .308 years ago that printed several groups of obscenely small size over the years. The best being a .395 group at 400 yards, or, roughly 1/10th MOA.

But I certainly didn’t call it a 1/10th MOA rifle!

It doesn’t always take shiney new.
I was with another member here and stopped at a yard sale, found a beautiful Gustav Stads 1917 in 6.5 x 55. The open sights on those are set up to hit center at 333 meters and go up from there.
I took it to a gunsmith who made a new custom front site, higher, bringing the base setting to 100 yards.
The Smith locked the gun down and tuned the sight and lo and behold it shot a couple of 3 shot groups and both have all three overlapping.
I could never shoot it that well in hand but it shows some of those old Swedes were really special.

Osky

I have a weatherby vanguard that outshoots me with 55 grains of IMR 4350 and 130 grain sierra boat tails. It came with an adjustable trigger. The new ones do not and I dont think a wood stock is an option anymore. Never measured it but pretty light and no creep. I did glass bed it and free float the barrel soon after I bought it. like James I have Mark II 300WM thats a shooter as well. Has a boat paddle zytell stock and is all stainless. I put a timney trigger in it soon after I bought it as the stock trigger was worse than awful. It likes 71 grains of IMR 4831 and barnes 180 grain tsx. i worked up the load with partitions but the TSX seem to shoot even better and give impressive performance on game.

I own three sub MOA rifles, but they are all custom. Two of them are true 1/4 MOA rifles, and both of those I bought used. I reload for everything, but one of those is a 223 I bought off a friend, and I seen him shoot two ten round groups with a box of Black Hills Gold factory ammo, and then set a dime over each group, and you couldn't see a mark on the paper with those two dimes sitting on it.

Bought the wife a cheap Savage Axis in 260, and it will shoot right at an MOA out of the box. Quite a few of the newer Savages will, but I had an older one I got as my first deer rifle and it wouldn't shoot worth a hill of beans, I did a lot of work to it and never could get it under 3 MOA. Finally pulled the 270 barrel off it and made it a project rifle and put a 22-250 bull barrel on it. I made it to shoot MOA but never could get it to feed the third round out of the magazine right. That one isn't counted in my 3 sub MOA rifles, because it is currently tore down and a project again.

A lot of modern rifles are capable of sub MOA. A lot of shooters are not.

Might be the truest post of this entire thread...

5 consecutive 5 shot groups in what the NRA shoots when testing out a rifle, seems like a lot for some of those pencil barrels. I usually shoot 3 shot groups but I’m cheap.

why most of the groups are less than what people would want but fairly realistic of what you can get

looking at the most recent issue of American rifleman and the new colt bolt action rifle in 308 was what they tested with 3 different ammo

their smallest was under an inch but their average was around 1 1/4 to1 1/2 from what I recall over the different ammos

if you make the price right I would buy a rifle with a 3 inch group at 100 yards with factory ammo

ditto on the 1.5 inch group sell it on the used market with no warrantee or guarantee.

Camp Pendleton shooting competition now that is bragging rights.

my Mossberg's aren't a one hole gun by any means gun but it sure got a lot better after bedding the action to the stock
the weakness seems to be in them relying on the magazine box to hold the action with the action screws and it doesn't

but if you get the action to stock fit a lot better it tightens it up considerably also make sure the stock isn't touching the barrel at all

some floor wax , plumbers putty and a 6 dollar tube of JB weld can really make a difference

these were my first few targets after bedding I was still working on loads I didn't have any other pictures but these aren't bad if I marked it "called" it was definitely me moving as the trigger broke , it happens I was shooting from a sling.

Watching the shooters in the first few minutes of that video it’s pretty easy to see why they weren’t shooting MOA accuracy.

I've bedded two actions and fully floated the barrel 1 1/2" past recoil lug with slight improvement. I decided it would be interesting and fun to fully bed the barrels. If it didn't work I could sand it out. Both were cheap plastic stocks. Both shot much better fully bedded barrels. And another thing that really surprised me is in both it improved all the factory loads Really improving the poor performing loads the most.

I know everyone says free float but on the only two rifle I've messed around with the fully bedded barrels was far and away better. Before bedding with factory loads I was seeing 2 1/2 " to 1 1/4 groups in one rifle after bedding barrel I was seeing 1 1/4 to 3/4 groups with exact same 4 factor loads. Both sporter profile barrels. Also more consistent as barrels warmed.

My Tikka was very consistent about the third shot being some what a flyer. 2 shots usually touching or close then third being an inch plus off. Let 3 other people shot gun and pretty much same thing. Bedded barrel and that completely stopped

Another thing, most people don’t need MOA for hunting big game. Be comfortable and confident with your rifle.

deer really haven't changed since 3 inches at 100 yards was completely acceptable 30 years ago.

and generally only the first round really matters if you make the hit

more practice from actual shooting positions you might encounter and less trying to make little bitty groups will likely make you a better shooter

too much magnification is also a thing when people can see their group or their movement they will be trying to compensate for the movement and make a larger group in many cases
we would wee this in Appleseed and shoot bosses would come back a 3-9 down to 3 and see a better group than they were shooting at 9x

Like he says in the beginning, it's the first cold bore shot that counts. My PGW LRT 3 will punch 1/2" holes all day long...LOL, but it became a 31lb paper weight in my safe since the feds said firearm firing a projectile with over 7375ft-lb of energy is now prohibited.

Cold bore shots only important if you only have one target.

May have a potential money maker on my hands. New to me pea shooter in 6 Creedmoor. The actual group is 1.25", but the the high and right and low center were on me. The gun looks like it is capable of stacking them in tight if the shooter could keep up. And those were some generic hand loads being used to fire form new brass. May just end load development there.

Don't be a sissy. Lol