Everything in the world with the exception of firearms have progressed at an exponential rate. No company has bested the 220 Swift, 300 Weatherby, 264 WM etc. for 50+ years. The only thing that has change is the bullet ogive. Velocity is no better! Oh and they cut a couple inches off the tube. P.O.Ackley is spinning inn his grave. We should have velocities 5000fps by now.

Been saying that for a long time. Not 5000fps but nothing new in spite of advertising by gun writers on each new wonderful development. Have to reinvent the wheel to keep selling. Scopes are seriously improved.

Material science is still bound to the metallurgy of barrels and actions when dealing with pressure propulsion of projectiles.

The Army's new 6.8 had to fundamentally change the cartridge case in order to hold higer pressures.

You can probably build a gun that doesn't leave the bench to shoot 5000+. You wouldn't want to carry it out to the field and hunt with it

If they get the 7 backcountry mastered that will open the door to higher velocities with longer barrels but no bullets will be up to par. And barrel life might suffer. Right now accuracy is main game and I'm not sure there's a real need for higher velocities. What would be the gain in extreme velocities?
With range finders and ballistic apps flat shooting isn't as important as it once was.

Folks want to kill stuff a mile away with a flatter trajectory.

With range finders and ballistic apps a flat trajectory isn't that important for extreme distance hit. The creedmoor is a slow cartridge but pretty accurate at longer ranges, ranges further that most people can make ethical shots on game. A thousand more feet per second is going to gain very range forgiveness at 4 figure distances.

Well Yes sir, you and I both understand that, but we also both know that as soon as they start writing up how flat it shoots and how far it kills, money will start changing hands real quick.

Lol true words. People were jumping on the 7 BC before it was really proven if it works

Its called a price point.


People dont want to pay what it would cost.

Get you a 30"+ barrel and you'll have speed.

Not fun to carry tho!

Boy this is getting good.
All I know the new stuff I've messed with is generally easier to deal with across the board vs a lot of legacy cartridges.....

But in the grand scheme of things when 60% of people are either nah dumping into berms or boiler rooming a deer at least the 100yd .... Does a lot of it really even matter ?

What's getting good?

The thread ? What a guy can't enjoy a post talking about old stuff being better then new stuff

I must have missed it. I thought we were talking about extreme velocities. But if ur enjoying it all is good

I'm talking about new technology, not just stuffing more powder in a case. Same old brass case, barrel steel etc. Its been more than 50 years. $$ is no object. Lots of 5000.00 dollar rifles with 4000.00 thermal scopes.

Probably because calibers like the 220 swift and 264 win mag got the reputation of barrel burners. Faster isn’t always better

^^^ this^^^ At much over 4000fps barrels start burning the throat.

Pressure equals velocity and brass cases can't handle any more pressure.

Portable power supply and batteries are limited for man portable lazers as far as I have seen. But it's not science I follow closely.

A light saber sounds fun untill you remember how often you cut yourself with your pocket knife.

Then don't use brass!

Steel works as russian ammo shows but it comes with issues like not flexing, shrinking once fired, leading to cases more or less stuck in the chamber. The new 6.8 case uses a two part steel head brass cylinder front mechanically locked together to get around the high pressure steel case problem. But it's not an easy or inexpensive fix. And the new 6.8 rifle is showing some teething issues in the field now.

Caseless or telescoping may be a thing but you still have the whole how to seal the pressure vessel that brass currently does. The brass case is essentially a gasket on a piston head.

That portable power thing is the hold up on the electromagnetic propulsion guns. That tech has already shown the potential to surpass conventional powder driven velocities.

I think the main reason for not higher velocities is it gains u so little for the troubles it brings. Though there are people working on it. Just look at the calibers u mentioned, they haven't exactly caught on despite their speed.

I have a Savage 110ML that uses smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. No case. Approaching 375 H&H ballistics.

Imo it gets to the point where there just not much point in higher velocity. Can get my 17-5.56 kak up to 5k with a 15.5 GR bullet but why ? Lower brass life , lower barrel life ect.

The ELR and UELR guys are doing. Some really cool stuff but there to the point where it's basically man portable artillery.

Now on a side notw these a few guys taking the .277 furry bi metal case and rednecking them and doing some ...very interesting things swore I saw one guy running a .243 at close to 4500fps but...

It's a more or less, minus the flash hole, a sealed vessel. The flash hole has a brass cap/primer and iirc that one is an inline locking bolt for a more positive stop on the primer.

Standard rifles are unsealed with the chamber. The brass case, supported by a locked bolt, functions as a sealing gasket.

Caseless ammo would require some sort of sealed vessel and steel on steel has always been problematic at getting a complete seal. It can be done as the big 16" rifles on the battleships were essentially caseless with just powder and shell.

Other problem with the 5k+ is you probably won't see it legalized for hunting outside of out west.

I love mine. Shot the same .45 xtp out of black powder for years almost always had to follow the blood trail. Got my savage ml2 and they almost always drop. Amazing waht 300 to 400 fps will accomplish.

The plastic sabot is why they don't shoot faster. BAD BULL makes some in KY that don't use a sabot that hit around 3k fps. But they are above my willing to pay price range so far.

On the 5,000 fps, what is the point or purpose? What does that get you when bullet arrives at it's final destination that 3,200 fps doesn't?

well 5K fps has been achieved,, burnt thee throat out within a single digit round count. you want max power or you want longivity,, same as car motors, extreme power means a short lifespan.

Meh. I like big chunks of lead better anyway. Give me a 444, 45-70, or 450 Bushmaster.

I have NEVER said the old cartridge's outperform the new ones. I say the new ones are not an improvement over the old ones. See no reason to buy a 300 black out or a creedmore. I already have guns that perform as well.

I have a black out to meet no longer in effects of state land hunting restrictions in a low recoil adjustment platform for my youngest when he was 7. To me it's OK if you want or need an AR platform. killed several deer with it between the kids and I and it works but it's nothing special for sure. I have zero use for it since our ruled have changed.

And the thread is correct there is nothing new that does anything any better than a much older round. Only good to sell more guns Magazines and gear.

Generally agree. Most cartridges are just variations on a theme. However, something like the 300blk has a distinct niche use in subsonic suppressed form. But I would also think that the users actually needing that exact use are probably less than 1% of shooters of all disciplines. Lots of want the cool factor, which imo needs no justification.

Most folks cannot hit a 8” plate much beyond 300 yards. Going faster won’t help that much.

If you want to get the most out of whatever your shooting this guy gives good advice

Well, bullet construction is much better than it was 30 years ago. 30 yesrs ago the only hunting bullet other than the jacketed soft point was the partition

One of worst developments in shooting sports I can think of is advent of the long range shooting game. One thing to pop paper plates at 1,000 yards with 6.5 Creedmoor. Another to take down a deer with same rifle at that range, which has led to well founded concerns. Lot of gut shot and otherwise crippled deer have wandered off to slow deaths. Rifle isn't the problem. Knucklehead holding the rifle is.

I know of one internet xpert who has made a name for himself in game of long distance hunting..........say out to 800 yards or so. It's not with a CM.......more like 300 Win mag or 7mm RUM. It takes a pretty big cannon to put enough energy downrange to do significant damage. Too many guys seem to be unaware of that.

243/6mm, 7mm08/7mm 308 7.62 all great rounds classics by all accounts.

but 6.5 is bad.. well except in a 6.5 sweed. at the same velocity or less than the 6.5 creedmoor That is balisticaly identical to my 260 Remington I had built before the creedmoor came out.

So unless you don't think a 243 is enough or a 7mm-08 at the same speed and cross over in bullet weight people should realize how fullish thay sound bad mouthing the 6.5 creedmoor. Bash the terrible/cringe but also great marketing that worked. But it's a fine efective round

Absolutely a miniscule amount of crippled deer to "long range" hunters compared to bow hunters and regular goobers with their 30-30 they shoot once a year.

I'm with ya on the big gun part tho. All the guys I know that shoot deer long range use bigger stuff, so judging them all from a few internet guys isn't accurate either.

In my area most deer are shoot under 70 yards. Furthest I have was 302 with a smokeless muzzleloader. Only becuse I had been playing at that distance on my cousins range while being layed uo on a walker and becuse I was on a walker I was not really hunting just sitting 20 yards from my truck basically waiting on my Brother in law to get done hunting where I told him to go while he was home waiting to ship out to Afghanistan.

Deer were about 50 yards I didn't see them untill the ran off when I stood up . The stiped on a hill that made a great backstop. Doe droped and is the only deer I have seen drop in a scope. Brother in law got a nice 13 point that night as well.

If i lived out west or where longer shots were possible and common I'm sure that would be different. Where and how people hunt are all different.

I use a 6.5 Gibbs for the most part,, though I also have a 270 weatherby, a 7mm STW, a 7mm Allen Mag,, and a 338 Edge. The creedmoor does well to 600 yards the gibbs to 1100 (its parent case is the 270 winchester.

There are some minor advantages to some of the newer cartridges but for hunting and the vast majority of hunters they aren't going to make any difference. Most of the newer cartridges come in factory guns with tighter tolerance chambers, faster twist barrels and slightly more efficient cases. Mostly the very slight advantages are geared towards target shooting and those who shoot a lot. Most of it is just cool factor.

imo, 95% of the "advances" in cartridged ammo in the past 30 years is nothing more than a collaboration between marketing folks and outdoor writers.

Yep! One hole in, one hole out.