Recently, I saw a video ( DVD ), where a man who I admire and respect commented that when a coyote buries a piece of meat, it "pees on it". . .

Hold on a second . . .

I have, over the years, many times, watched both foxes and coyotes using the aid of binoculars, and I've never once seen them urinate on a morsel after burying it.
Neither has any field biologist I've ever talked with, seen documented, or read any of their written material on the subject.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I have watched countless documentaries on wolves, coyotes, foxes, and jackals.
While I've watched them all bury partially eaten food, I've never seen them mark the spot with urine.

But. . .that's what trappers do.

And it isn't natural !

Marking a spot with urine attracts an animal to a certain spot
And why would you want to attract attention to something you want to hide ?

A good way to get it stolen, if you ask me.

Canines know this and that's why they do NOT mark buried food, IMO.
That's been my experience, Therefore, my belief.

But trappers do it and they do it with bottled, aged urine.
Why is that ?

Somewhere on here, I read a thread about making a Cache Set, where, if I understood it correctly, buried the bait and then set the trap right over the bait.
To me, that seems like a good way to find your trap exposed and dug up, if not snapped off.
Granted an animal could get caught in a trap, set on a hair trigger, but why would you not place the trap where the animal would step, as opposed to overtop the bait ?

I've set a good many Cashe Sets, all with the trap out font, none of them with urine.
If I do use urine, it's always upwind, at another set.
That makes far more sense to me.

When a canine buries a piece of food (flesh), it rakes out a shallow hole with both front feet, tucks the morsel in the hole using its mouth, then fills in the hole, using its nose.
It doesn't then mark it with urine.
It simply walks away

And so should you. . .

Natural isn't always the best. Sometimes it has its advantages on the difficult ones. Around here if I made a cache set as u described using straight fresh rabbit and a deep dirt hole Set beside it with a good lure that has ingredients in it that these coyotes have never smelled I know without a doubt which would catch more coyotes.

I know a guy that caught 900+ coyotes in a fur season. I'd like to see you convince him he's doing it wrong and to give up urine at his dirt holes.

If urine attracts other critters to the hole as you stated isn't that a good thing for a trapper? See coyotes are trying to hide there food and trappers are trying to attract others to it.
You say its a good way to get it stolen.. i want them to try and steal it.Two different agendas.

When I place urine at a dirt hole set It's never In the hole. It might be 2' from the set or 12" from the actual set but NEVER In the hole or on the backing.

If u have never tried it how do u know which way is most effective?

Pretty much what Charlie wrote years ago. He said the only time he saw them mark a cache was AFTER they robbed it.

He also said he’ll make a dirt hole with no bait and just urine in the hole.

As Lt stated. It's a good way to get ur bait stolen. I'm for them to try and rob me.

Grab a camera or make a few test holes and see which way gets the most action.

Not arguing because most on here are much better trappers than I, but if it isn’t natural, why does it work?

“Most” everything you read or see, says bait down the hole, lure on the lip or up high, and urine on the backing. The hole is generally below the backing.

Its all about the reactions you get from the critters you're chasing. Both ways will work, you just get different reactions and how long theyll work the set will be different.

Forget worrying about what's natural, you don't need it to catch the majority of the coyotes. Worry about what works. Coyotes don't pee at a cache for the same reason trappers use urine at the set...... it attractants other coyotes. Coyotes don't want robbed trappers want robbed.
I'm interested in learning what are the differences in reaction at a dirt hole when you use urine in addition to your normal bait/lure and which setup gets them to work the set longer. My experience watching coyotes on videos is when urine is present at the hole they are more confident in working the set, especially in the first couple of days. I personally didn't notice a difference on how long they worked a set or the intensity of them working the set when urine was or wasn't used. That seemed more to do with how much they wanted your bait or lure.

Urine may/may not of given the sets that were a bit off a bit of a bump but anything out of place at the set seems still to get the majority of the attention of the coyote. Just never ever for me to really mess with urine during the season outside of flat sets.

Lots of lure ingredients non-natural.

I agree they don't mark it unless they stole it,, take that you other k9.

A couple of times in large deer population areas
I skipped the urine and cut back on lure.
Was surprised that the catch rate seemed the same.
I cut back the amount afterwards.

And then there was a trapper in my area that used so much you could smell it way before you seen his set and he did very well.

Hopefully this topic gets traction.

Lt sir,
How many hundreds of thousands of canines have been caught doing it wrong? I would wager a freaking lot of them.
I hear what you are saying. Fantastic trappers have said the same thing. Old Mr. Charlie Dobbins wrote about his observations.

But again, I would ask how many hundreds of thousands of canines have been caught doing it wrong?

I am not arguing with you. At one time I did not think I could catch canines with out urine, but I was wrong.
But I have caught a crap load using old school methods before "I learned better."

I have cache style sets also that does not have the trap on top of bait. Everyone really ought to read Bill Nelson's book and all of O'Gormans. The Big O covers a lot of ground about urine usage in his books and videos.




Mac

I started collecting my own two years ago. I've been considerably more impressed with the attraction ability of urine since I started using my own. Only reason I bring this up is because when I hear people talking about it not affecting their catch rate I wonder how good is the urine they're using.

I think most on this post know good pee.
Last I bought was same vender / product after Russ C bought some.
Before that it was from Bill K.
Yes, quality matters. And yes, there is junk out there.

I won't argue that but I have seen people on here that are held in pretty good light on here recommend pee from the same supplier I was buying from before I collected. Had a friend this spring buy urine from 3 suppliers that are smaller dealers and reputable lure makers. He wanted to get to the bottom of the urine debate. He called all three prior to purchasing to verify that there urine was a 100% pure undiluted no additives of any kind. All the verified 100% natural urine. First test.... freezer for 24 hrs... 1 froze totally solid, one 2/3rds solid 1/3 liquid and not a bit frozen. The stuff that didn't freeze He left in freezer couple more days, never froze. He called the guy and the supplier stated again 100% pure no additives but wouldn't give an answer why his urine wouldn't freeze. I believe fewer people know what good urine is than what we would like to believe. Trapping world is relatively small world. Couldn't be too many out there collecting in any kind of significant volume that trappers wouldn't know about. And I know of one that collects but from some testing someone shared with me I also believes he adds to it to increase the volume.

P-Post sets work good-you dont need any bait for those sets.
Its easy to collect pee on the trapline in winter for the odd few sets.
I will occasionally take frozen wolf bladder pee for some uses also..

LT gotta say it's nice having you back and posting, seems you can get folks talking better then anyone else for some reason. I'll be here waiting to archive this post. You need some help posting pictures let me know LT , figure you have some good ones

Urine has its place, but it's not cake frosting.

I've tried It both ways and I've settled on placing urine away from any bait hole set. And If your on location and have a good lure why do you even need urine.

My opinion based of watching coyotes reaction to a dirt hole with urine and another attractant like a bait or lure is it increases your odds of a catch. Same reason some use more than one attractant at a set or multiple sets at one location. It's all about increasing your catch rate. And like Lt pointed out it attractant other animals and is a great way to get your bait stolen.
Doesn't Robert squiet it on the backing or in the hole on every set?

I believe that by placing the urine somewhat close to the set makes the fox or coyote more at ease. The other thing I do Is I place my lure at a baited hole set about 3" or 4 " to the right or left of the baited hole. It seems to me i get more foot movement that way. Any way that's how James Lucero does It.

Glad you posted that. That’s what I’ve been doing this year as well. I tend to put my urine out in front mainly to draw attention to the set. I’m relying on the bait and/or lure to get them caught.

I didn't read all the responses, but I did read a few.

I'll try to respond to some of it.

First of all, I am not a fur trapper.

I am the 'gun for hire', so to speak. I trap animals because people pay me to.
It has been my full time job, most of my adult life.
In this business, you catch certain animals, or you don't get paid.
Simple as that. . .but I digress.

The number one scent sold today, volume wise, is in fact urine.
128 ounces to a gallon.

Trappers use it, because it works.

Canine urine will attract rabbits and deer and cattle. . .and of course, canines.
Aged, bottled urine will cause some canines to shy away, but not many.
Most canines will walk up and sniff urine, regardless of the type. Even human urine. It doesn't scare animals like we've been told.

Trappers buy urine and use it far more than is needed.
A coyote or any other canine doesn't use as much, when they are 'marking' an area, as I have seen most trappers use.

A canine's nose is rich with olfactory senses. They read their world using their sense of smell.

When (many) trappers make a dirt hole set, they add bait to the hole, some type of lure of the edge or lip of the hole, urine of the specie they're after (or similar)
and some will even add a dropping or two.

Q ) Which could you remove from that equation and still have the set produce the animal that approaches ?
A) All of them, save one and that's any one of them. The ( fresh ) set alone will catch some animals

You don't need multiple scents to catch an animal at a set.
But lure makers tell us you do . . . to get the animal to stutter-step, increasing your odds to step on the trap.
And when you, the trapper, use multiple scents at a set and catch the target animal. . .you swear it works, because , well, it did.
But you could have caught the animal by just using one.

Personally, I would take that same lure, bait , urine and droppings and make four separate sets, all close by, increasing my chances of multiple catches.
Q) What's the best animal attractant ?
A) An animal of the same specie

If you need more than one scent at a set. . .you're using the wrong scent !

Q)How many scents does a 'control trapper' use ON an M-44 or Getter Gun ?
A) ( I hope you said ONE ! )

Know why that is ? IT"S THE RIGHT (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) SCENT !

( Think about it )

Now, as one trapper pointed out, Charlie Dobbins wrote his observations on using urine at a dirt hole set,
which was that a canine doesn't scent mark a baited set, unless the bait is no longer present.

So, a morsel in the hole, no urine.
If the hole is empty, it marks it with urine.

Which is why urine does not belong on a Cache Set.

Could it work ?
Sure.
But it isn't natural , nor is it needed.
The same results will occur without urine.

Animal urine, attracts animals and a properly placed trap will catch most as they approach.

1) Fox, cats, coyotes and yes, even wolves seldom, if ever scent mark over aged bottled urine, as we've been led to believe by writers of the past.
It's B S !
Oh, they'll walk straight up to it and smell it. They'll do the same where you pee , but they won't scent mark aged urine.
It does NOT have that effect, which is why it doesn't warrant that response.

Now let your trap line dog scent mark a bush and a coyote will lose it's mind !
Do you know why that is ?
Do you know what the difference is ?

Most trappers don't.

And that is why the majority of fur trappers, remain fur trappers, where the name of the game is 'numbers of animals caught'.


The percentage of animals caught in the fall and early winter are the young of that year.
And with mammals, that's usually 2 to 8 per litter, on average

In regards to coyotes : There is a world of difference between a fall pup and a hard nosed predator that has seen the best trappers, hunters and snare men have to offer.

And when you are paid to kill that coyote (or coyotes) after everyone else has failed, you had better do it right the first time !


(NUISANCE) companies in my area are charging as high as $2,000.00 for a single coyote. . .
A single coyote !

And frankly, most of them couldn't catch a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) coyote if you threw it in their lap !

You won't 'fur trap' many coyotes in July and August.
Ask a man that does it for a living.

And that, my friends, is why you don't use cookie cutter fur trapping methods on a wise old dog that's ,(not only been around, but OWNS ) the block !

That response ^^^ might save me some money.

I’m guilty of throwing the whole gauntlet at a set and thinking it worked when I catch something.
Based on your experience and writings, it very well could have been just one of the things I used. Now my brain is spinning wondering if all that is too much at once and that why a lot of sets catch on day 2 or 3 after all that scent has dissipated some.
I’m still learning…

Wanna Be,
Use two to three different odors at a set, and when you catch the 'target animal', which one caught the animal ?
All of them ?
Why, that's not what the ad said when they sold you the lure ?
That lure, that single lure was a deadly fur taker. . .

Now, why did you use three ?

If the set is wrecked, do you rebuild it and add more. ( even just urine ) Many trappers do. . .

Bait and lure won't make you a better trapper
Becoming a better trapper will make you a better trapper.
( if that seems confusing, as a blind setter for mink what it means)

Quote: "You can skin an animal only once, but you can skin a trapper, year after year "
Harry Smeal

Oh, to be a lure marker again with a high dollar market . . ,.

Lt I would agree with most of all you posted above. And yes the approach of a fur trapper and a control guy can be much different especially during warm seasons. Fur trapping I'm not completely sold that one attractant is ALWAYS best. Considering lures and prepared baits usually have at least 4 ingredients at the bottom end to 12+ ingredients on the top end, I don't see the idea of one lure with say 12 ingredients in it always being more effective than say a lure with 5 ingredients and a bait with four. And I'll say I have seen negative effects especially on the tougher to catch coyotes of having 3 or 4 different sets in one area. That much stimulus in one area just isn't natural. Lol

What's Robert do

Here’s my issue.I don’t trap places with high or even medium numbers of coyotes. Coyote tracks are are minimum where tracks can be seen. Even not many on cameras. I made a set with a camera July 23. The only time my camera went off besides me riding by checking sets was when a coyote finally came through and got caught on July 29th.
So I guess my confidence level with just bait or lure or even urine isn’t enough to just trust one at a set, when critters only come through every so often, hence the reason I throw everything I have at them.

But, I’m going to follow the advice on here and try just one at a time and see what happens.

Y'all use lure? Why?

And that's why you see videos posted on places like You Tube where trappers have 4,5,6,7 or more coyotes caught within a 100 yards, or so, area.

Ever see the Bob W e n d t one with 10 or 12 ?
How about Robert Waddell's 7 in a row, one night.

Keep believing that Santa is real

I know better and I still get a gift

Glad you dumped the cart, LT.

I'd love to chime in with all my hard won knowledge of urine but to tell the truth I haven't used it in years.

Honestly, I've been pondering urine lately and considering the various offerings including some of the secret sauce word of mouth sources. But when looking back on the time I did use urine nothing about urine ever stood out or seemed to be the difference. So I just wondered if I was somehow missing something.

At the moment my ranking of items that'll put paw on pan.

Location
Bait
Set construction
Lure

I say at the moment because I'm always open to change based on knowledge gained.

When I hear people say that. . .a thought runs through my mind.

( I wanna trap where they trap )



The true secret to success on the trap line is : Location and how natural the set looks

Stop believing all that other BS

If you are ever down this way and got a day or two to spare I’d be MORE than happy to let you set, lol! Wouldn’t hurt my feelings if you had a full line the next morning. I’m open to learning.

Along those same lines, I read about folks catching 10+ coyotes a day and I think, I’d love to trap where they trap.

Different times of year animals respond to different stimulus.
As a fur trapper I target predatory animals in winter when fur is prime. Winter is when they are hungry here.Baiting shines when the country is lean.
If I have to kill a predator when the living is easy,I will go first with blind sets or second with a set that stimulates their territorial behaviour.
Bait is mostly of no use in warmer weather,unless setting up a wolf kill or similar-even then the window is small.

Lt are u saying those pics are not real? Not tracking with Santa comment
My point in the post of too many sets spooking coyotes is in reference to the smarter/hard ti catch , more like control trapping. Those pics are fur trapping/ take out the easy ones...
Stay hooked here with me
As far as seeing those pics, I've got a friend that had 12 in one pic a couple years ago. He's on this forum but to my knowledge has never post on the subject of coyote trapping. And he does use pee at every dirt hole along with Bob W and Waddell.

LT, What kind of Lure's do You use?

I've made lure and baits since the late 70's.
Most people that know me, know that,
I've had several lure lines over the years, but currently, just make it for myself and a few friends.
Most major lure and bait companies' products will attract the animals they were intended to.

Jameson's coyote gland lure is top-notch, IMO,, as are many of his other scents.
Johnny G over in Wyoming, and Craig's lures in Montana, all first-rate.
When Andy Weiser made lures, I used them fairly often.

A lot of good products out there.
I have named but a few.

I use a lot of whole natural baits, which coyotes and foxes really eat.

In the heat, you don't use a lot of baits though.
The odor attracts flies and your baits will be a ball of maggots in a day or so.

A coyote will stroll right past it.

Dropping usage is high during the warmer months, as coyotes in particular are marking the roads they travel on.
* See: 'What droppings teach us' possibly in the Trapperman.com archives.


They do dry out rather quickly in the heat and that's where glycerine comes into play.
But that's another subject in itself

What where your most popular lure lines u made?

Been watching this thread...I'd like to give a big THANK YOU to LT GREY! Coyote and beaver give me fits, but coyotes more than anything! I learn a little more every year, and just keep plugging away. BTW Yes sir your input/bantor has kept this from dying, thanks to you as well!

Having seen first hand the area where 9 coyotes were caught in one night , I feel I should comment on the amount of stimulus involved. It’s really hard to believe until you’ve seen it. In one section of fence about a hundred yards or less long and about 50 to 60 yards wide was more coyote scat than you could put in two 5 gallon buckets . If I remember right 4 snares were placed in the fence and ten foot holds were scattered about 10 yards wide and 70 to 80 yards long with the first and last set being snares . Every foot hold was a dirt hole with muskrat and a shot of urine on the backing. In two days 15 coyotes died along that fence, old and young alike. This was the end of January, so probably not too many dumb ones in the bunch. How many problem coyotes and wise coyotes died in those two days and the days that followed ? No really, how many ?

The simple fact is when you’ve got that many coyotes using one area you might not be able to put out too much stimulation. Did the amount of stimulation cause any refusals? That’s what the snares picked up .

Anyone ever seen a Casey Payne demo ?

Thanks for the lure info LT. Nice to know You are a lure maker also. I think I know the answer to the Dog Pee question? The pee plus kickback = communication, territorial claim, warning, etc. etc. Lots of info in that fresh pee?

Population dictates how greedy and territorial coyotes are, more coyotes the easier is it's to get them to respond. The opposite when theirs less. I agree it should only take one attractant, but some scents work best in combination. Urine won't cover mistakes or make an animal less cautious but when used in it's true intent it's deadly.

Great thread LT, you must be feeling better LOL.

The guy that won the N.M. coyote trapping trapping contest used chicken bones from fried chicken in a dirt hole ........ and pee

And won it , how many times ?

New Mexico coyote trapping contest?? Maybe we should have a = Tman coyote trapping contest?

put one on. those apaches wanted a small fortune for an entry fee. get a few thousand acres lined up of deer leases or something. dont charge a bunch of money. maybe get an exemption or reduction in non resident license fees. or hold it wy. in a county with lots of predator control and ariel gunning. no license required. lots of public ground

There are areas in WY where its tough to catch a half dozen in a week. You need to be on your game. That country will sort the typers from the trappers. Would make trapping for no money at great expense a lot of fun.

The indians set it up where two people teams were competing, and number of traps was limited, I think, to 50 traps per team.

I wonder if John Graham could put you in touch with some Wyomingites to help you get it going?

The guys just camped in the N.M. contest.

Phil Brown also won it multiple times. I think he had mentioned his son was his partner once, and his wife several times. Not sure if he reads in the Trapping Only section or not, but maybe he'll chime in.

I would enjoy the honor of competing against some of Tman best coyote trappers. Would like to see = 1000 dollar entry fee. Unlimited traps per man. No team stuff. Maybe 30 or 40 guys. BIG cunk of land. A 30 or 40000 dollar winner take all would make for a good prize !!

Provide me a side by side in location and I'm game

Would have to be wy with no limits and 30-40 trappers else you would be tripping over each other

I think you would find the guys that relied on lure and left their urine at home would be headed back with their tail tucked between their legs

30-40 guys running 150 200 mile lines will need a lot of room

Guys were tripping over each other in the coyote championship too...

I'd be intrested but personally would rather see a modest entry fee and modest pay. Trapping for the honor of winning it and the enjoyment of meeting other Tman members and less about the $. That kind of pay out would have people who aren't members join just to enter and the seriousness of that kind of pay out would tempt so to consider breaking
rules and also tempt some of accusing others of breaking rules. Option of going as a team or individual. 5 or 7 days of trapping by yourself half way across the country might not intrest alot of people and I personally don't see having a partner as a huge advantage but I would also limit the number of traps so that it wasn't just a contest about who can grind it out the hardest but more towards skill. It would also help with how much country u needed.

If we are serious we should start it's own thread.

I wonder how many teams they usually get in the NM one and is its still going on.?

Right need some where SUPER large = 6666 Ranch is 350000 acres or so. King Ranch is almost 1 million. Dont know how big Mescularo is ? 1/2 million acres? Point is - somewherw massive. No limit on traps No team. Be the greatest contest ever = with the most coyotes EVER killed in a contest ! That would be worth it!!!

I could be wrong but getting on an operation like those mentioned and putting together some like that with those rules would be interesting but very unrealistic. But if u could make it happen I say go for it.

I think the hardest part will b finding an organizer for thr event.
I'd be ok with 1000 entry fee but modest pay outs with some going to something like the discretionary fund. I think a Tman contest and the world's biggest and greatest should b geared differently.

Yes Sir the Apache reservation championship contest ended a few years ago

Yes Sir. If Boss Paul would let us orginize it here. Give Tman = 5-10 % say 5 or 10000 dollars. Ranch = Or venue gets coyotes caught and same on money. So = do = winner takes all. No trap limit No teams. 5 to 7 days. 20000 or more or whatevers left. Make the money = A life changing event

Didnt know that. But you get the picture. Some where LARGE and BIG cash pay out !!!!

I'd be willing to help organize possibly but personally would not be intrested in big pay out or unlimited trap. But if we were serious I think we would have to see what the general consensus on here would be as far as the structure. I've seen what big $ has done to fishing and calling contests and personally I'm just not intrested in opening the door to that much drama. If others would want that that's the way it could be set up though.

OK. I can get the no big pay out. BUT I just dont get the unlimited traps? Most people dont go to a coyote trapping job or out on the line with just a arbitrary # off traps ? Make it - the greatest contest of all. With the most coyotes EVER kill in a single contest ! Think how much good it will would do the landowner !

So he who has the most is the greatest coyote catcher?
A better contest would be based on how many individuals are in the competition. 100 competitors limited to 10 traps each. That would be more of a Championship.
If the absolute best coyote trapper you could think of only put out 50 and the worst put out 200, who do you think would catch the most? He who has the most sets in the ground.
If you want to declare yourself a true coyote catcher, then limit traps so everything is the same. A blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

I'd buy a ticket, to sit in the bleachers. I know I'm not a coyote trapper by any reasonable measure. I'm a problem solver and if solving the problem is scaring them off then I'm cool with that, too.

I show up on a property and a coyote won’t be seen for at least 2 months after I leave and definitely not when I’m there!

. You sound like the government. WHY? Put limits on anything? Talking about 300000 to 1 million acres. Big money pay out. Unlimited traps Let a person put out what he wants. Who you want a contest or where someone said = NO dirtholes ?? Geez

Question is who can catch the most based on nothing but pure skill with the only variable being the grey matter in a trapper's head or sheer ability of effort.

The first would require reducing all variables to a minimum such as same number and type of trap, same size parcel/population, etc. Leave nothing but choice of set location, construction and luring to the competitor.

The second could be unlimited and let the man with the most stamina show what he's got.

Either competition would be impressive no doubt.

ST

I understand your view and agree with it if you want to say your very best no hold barred coyote trapper. Particularly if your running the contest in an area of low numbers and high pressure.

But the 2 biggest challenges I see in putting this together is
1 find ground Particularly if it's held on private
2 actually getting enough participants especially if we keep it to Tman

Limited # of traps need less ground and I believe would intrest more guys because some just aren't intrest in trying to get 150 sets in the ground for many reasons. A few being cost (gear, carrying gear and fuel bringing gear and running that much country). Another down side few people are able or intrested in physically putting themselves into that kind of challenge.

Like I said I understand being the ultimate coyote trapper does require hard work lots of equipment and tons of want to but I'm looking more at the logistics of making it happen and gearing it a little more towards skill and enjoyment than ultimately numbers caught. If that makes any sense. But if enough were intrested in unlimited traps and that was the general consensus and you could find the ground I don't see why not.

I also think have a partner would intrest more people. Split cost and make it more enjoyable. But maybe there would be enough intrest in a no holds barred one man contest to make it work.

Need to start a separate thread to guage intrest and bounce around ideas

I wonder if a few of the old hands still with us couldn't whoop up on the young bucks with just a handful traps vs an all day long line?

While each has it's merits it's the rare individual that that has both at the same time in life.

Well guys. I guess this is why it will NEVER work out that we will ever have a Tman coyote catching contest. Everyone wants something different. No one can agree on anything. Here is what I would love to see. = Unlimited traps Unlimited space Large CASH payout No partners! I feel that that the top guys would want to = pony up the cash and go for it ! I am a gambler myself BUT would consider it an honor to compete agains the best of the best of Tman. Just like the idea of = big cash pay out and LOTS of dead coyotes. That being said. IF yall ever got up a contest. Regardless of rules I did or did not like. I would still take off a week or so and play.

ST

I understand your view and I appreciate your willingness to be flexible

Thanks. Yes Sir. Thats whats life is all about right? Compromise ? We all trap coyotes alittle different. But. Killimg coyotes = Is killing coyotes! LOL!

I'd love to see that contest.

I guess what I was comparing would be more like an Ironman triathlon vs International Chess Master Competition, two completely different things. And both equally challenging and fascinating in different ways.

Guess I misunderstood the assignment, lol. Thought y’all wanted it as a competition.

Warrior. I quess if we are honest with ourself. There will NEVER be a 100 % fair contest. What do you mean? Ever rule = helps someone but hurts another in a competion. How do you mean? A old veteran coyote trapper is help by lets say 12 traps Where someone that has been brought up setting. 2 or 3 traps per set is hurt. IF you pick a high density coyote place ? The bait maker has the advantage over the veteran guy that grew up in low density coyote sheep country. And so on and so on. The this is finding a compromise everyone can live with. And in the end. No one is forced to play. Everyone will have different likes and dislikes in ANY contest. No contest is 100% fair to every single person. But hopefully. One can be put together

That is true.

I still think Ali could've taken Tyson. But I guess we'll never know. LOL

I guess I like you're goal, killing coyotes is all about killing coyotes.

I tend to overthink it and want to peek over folks shoulder and pick apart what the finer details of a good set are.

Killing large # of coyotes would do just that ! LoL ! BUT we all have our on opinions on way makes a contest a contest. And thats fine with me. We all have different likes and dislikes. We all have different ways and methods. I personally like the idea of = go somewhere. Make it worth the landowners time For having the contest. Kill lots of coyotes. Have BIG cash prize!!!!! But thats my dream contest. May be not yours. But mine LOL!!!

Don't think it would be too hard. Just do the same rules as the coyote trapping competition they had in the rez.
Think it was something like one day to scout and make sets ( not place traps, punch holes ect) . No snaring the fence, must be back by a certain time for count or the days catch will be forfeit for that person and no stealing anyone's catch o and no calling I think .. other then that from my understanding it was wide open in if you could outwork the next guy then it just was what it was

Seems quite reasonable. Save the finer detail limited for a tie breaker if need be.

Guys I see how this thread got started from another thread. My question is what was the guidelines to the contest that no longer takes place? Maybe some guidelines could be established if we knew what theres were. Not saying you have to follow them. Just something to go by.

So if there ever is a Tman coyote competition on a big ranch how would it be an equal playing field considering the population isn't the same on the entire ranch? Or to we just take off like a flock of quail and fight for the best locations LOL?? 100 traps limit would make things interesting; I'll even use urine LOL... An unexploited population would be awesome.

Pretty sure the coyote championship, it had to be all footholds and a judge looked for trap marks on the feet. Everyone left the same time everyday and had to be back by a set time or you get DQ'd for the day unlrss you had extenuating circumstances like a truck breakdown.

Trap limit does make sense as a guy could just run his own sets then start scouting the competition adding traps on top of the other guys.

Have it up north in winter-separate the men from the boys-big country up there-the snareman would take it.

I dont think It would be a good idea for some of this crew To try to cross an International boarder! LOL !!

Probably scare the manchild trudope into doing something stupid.

You dont have to go that far.

I'm peeing on this reply! Lol (LT don't get too offended please!)

...this thread is about urine. It was just a bad joke.

Trappers use of urine at a set is not about duplicating what an animal does naturally but as a fear eliminater. An animal smells anothers odor & makes it feel safer about approaching

That would be my theory also based of watching coyotes reactions to urine on video

Based on that. . .let's dump a gallon of urine in a garden sprayer and adjust the nozzle to 'mist' and cover the entire area 5ft X 5 ft

Now, as strange and unnatural as that may seem. . .I've done that plenty of times.


What happens when an animal is trapped ?
It urinates and (often defecates) and spreads it all around as it digs, so the urine odor is all over that entire (trap) circle.
So, the area where the animal was trapped, often reeks of urine.
What's the difference ?

Well , to answer that, it's body odor, period.
Now, want to duplicate that ?

Here's a simple trick I use :

Skin a coyote, then take the entire hide and soak it in a clean bucket of rainwater, overnight.
The water now reeks of coyote !
Pour it into a 'garden sprayer' , turn the nozzle to mist, and spray the entire set area.

* to concentrate this odor : freeze the water, then turn it upside down and allow the 'funk' to drain leaving the 'ice' behind. . .

Back when we were kids, the old timers told us to wash our hands with fox urine before making a set. All we used back then was a pine cone soaked in fox urine down a hole. We’d use the classic V with logs and brush piled up on the point covering the hole. We didn’t have coyotes back then, or at least not many. When we were done with a set it reeked of fox urine. And yeah, we caught coons, fox, and bobcats of those sets regularly. How? I don’t have a clue because we’d make our pans so lose if a mouse hopped across it then it would snap. Keep in mind we were about 12 or so too, lol.

Typing that made me realize I haven’t made a set like that since those days. Just for old times sake I just might. The wife might forbid me from coming inside if I wash my hands in fox pee though.

Lol, that made me giggle!

Here's another funny story for you then. . .


Years ago, at the NTA show, an old timer would have a bottle that you couldn't see through, and inside the bottle was plain water.

When young kids would come up to his booth at a convention, he would ask them if they wanted to smell what real high-quality urine smells like.
Some would say ''Yes".
He would then open the cap and extend the bottle toward them, so they could smell it. . .but what they didn't know, is he had rubbed his index finger with 'spiked' fox urine and the kids were actually smelling the scent on the top of the finger that held the bottle, NOT what was inside.

They would always recoil of course, with a curled lip
He would then say, that if you really wanted to know how good the urine was, you should take a sip. . .to which he would put the bottle to his lip, using the other hand and take a drink. . .

Those kids eyes would be as big as saucers !

He sold a lot of pints of urine !

Hahaha!

Thorpe would liberally squirt urine all over the set and around it, kneel in the mess and make his set.
He caught canines.
Many of the old timers used urine like a cover scent.

Johnny, on his own account, claimed to have smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day.
Who do you know that does that ?

He was trying to cover up his tobacco odor. I know a lot of people who smoke. I seriously doubt animals are afraid of tobacco. But, it will shorten your life. . .and that is the real damage to a trapper

He quit smoking long before I visited for instructions.
I don't think he was overly concerned about human scent at that time but it was the way a lot of that generation were taught to trap foxes. Pete Rickard may have been influencial in that. Most of the old books tell you to sprinkle your set with urine.

I seen a guy giving instructions on trapping wolves who used the dried flake "coyote urine" sold as a deer repellent in the gardening section. He would take the shaker and shake it all over his set like salting a plate of food. Claimed he did the same for coyotes. I don't know how successful he was, I tried it on a couple of sets without success, but I didnt really have confidence in it and didn't figure either that it would smell natural or that I wanted urine everywhere even if it did. So I never tried it enough to give it a fair trail.

IMO, if you're using that type of product, there's more than one flake on that trap line . . .

It makes sense to do this to me to protect the cache, when another animal smells their pee they are just going to assume that the coyote was there, and may not smell the food. Coyotes on the other hand apparently have one of the greatest noses in the woods, so it would know if other coyotes are passing through. I also don't really place merit in field biologist never hearing about it, last year I was out in the woods 10x than any state field biologist in the entire state combined. My dog also pees on the woodline, as well as poops there everyday, if she smells something else she will pee on that spot. Not as experienced as most on here, but just my opinion.

I will test this though this year, I'll get some steak and bury it and pee on the spot where it's buried, see how long it stays. I will update you.

After filling holes with bait, squirting urine and smearing lure for 3 years, I'd leave it all at home except for my rotted mouse bait for coyotes.

Unfortunately I'm in a "cage only" state so it doesn't matter much but with 3 to 8 holes in a bank, the "mice only" out preforms everything especially in the middle of summer.

Some of my other baits/lures get great responses but not in the heat of the summer.

For what it's worth..

Shame Washington state has lost it's trapping rights on foot holds

Yep. Sucks for sure! Coyote trapping was definitely in the top 10 of things I enjoyed in life.
I now use dirthole sets to locate active coyote areas then hunt them with my thermal equipment. Odds of a response seem to go way up where holes are dug up and way cheaper/faster than running cameras.

"Fox, cats, coyotes and yes, even wolves seldom, if ever scent mark over aged bottled urine, as we've been led to believe by writers of the past.
It's B S !
Oh, they'll walk straight up to it and smell it. They'll do the same where you pee , but they won't scent mark aged urine.
It does NOT have that effect, which is why it doesn't warrant that response."


Wont . Never always Three words that will make a liar out of anyone


News to me coyotes wont work aged urine.
Guess i better just shoot the coyote in my pen and quit useing urine lt said it wouldnt work

Same here TravC. Going up to lure shed now and pour out my last 2 year old gallon of SMC urine. Momday I will get us some commercial coyote urine ! LoL!!

I don't think you realize how much our state biologist are out ...