It's the chemical company's farm bureau ect.

I enjoy looking at reforestation maps or a timeline of yearly photos. Woody invasion occurs along with removal of patchy weedy fields. Many people think their lands never change. In a 5 year cycle - the same farm can change drastically just from woody encroachment or loss of annual weeds.
I firmly beleive there is much greater impact from crop herbicides and even crop oils in todays agriculture. We have lost pollinators, too many species of amphibians and reptiles, small rodents etc from modern day farming practices. Go take a drive and looks at the millions of acres that just got sprayed with some sort of burn down herbicide. All crop fields around me are tan colored currently and sterile........sterile wastelands designed to produce a govt subsidized product not grown for human consumption.. take care of the soil and it will take care of you.
Look at current hay production - right at the peaks of turkey nesting and fawn birthing.
Pay more for CRP and much of the issues will improve.

But turkeys arent just in crop lands. I know of counties where there is not a row crop field within 50 miles - and they have seen declines - maybe greater than ag.

I have only a few ag fields (compared to counties further north and west).....but I do have intensive forestry management.

This is occurring on my 400 acre lease as I'm typing this. About 150 acres will be chopped over next 2 or 3 days this week. Bad timing for the nests and fawns. Then root raking/herbicide/pine row bedding. Long term benefits = good for turkeys and deer. Short term = death.

Reckon a nest of eggs or a fawn will survive that?

Does poor habitat or chemicals destroy nests and kill poults overnight?

Patrick, i wonder if pine seedlings are treated with Neonics?

Got anybody, (maybe Coone) who might know?

Dr Jonathan Lundgren spoke out about neonics while I was up in North Dakota. He was academically and fiscally cancelled from research by any govt funded institution. The USDA is led by past Monsanto reps all the way through leadership.

Habitat destruction or chemicals can kill wildlife overnight. I have killed many turkey nests and fawns with a disc mower and as soon as any crop oil is sprayed on any egg - it can suffocate the embryo by not allowing air exchange through the egg. WS routinely oils geese eggs to prevent nesting success and renesting.

Ok - I will give you that. How does it happen on a 27,000 acre NWR where they are not spraying herbicide - or a many Thousand acre walk in area where no management activity occurs at all. It is hard to imagine all the nests and poults dying in these studies are first sprayed with chemical before they turn up dead the next day. I have helped a little on one of these research projects where the predators devastated the nests - and there was no chemical used anywhere near the area. To get get the research conclusions to provide false information would require a dozen people - maybe more - to contribute to the lie - and most of these researchers are not democrats.

Poor reproduction,

I'll find out, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were.

I think we are all looking for a primary reason to blame due to the fact that the decline is occurring across most of the continental US.

Problem can't be entirely:

1) predators...as their populations haven't changed much over decades.
2) pesticides especially in non-ag country.
3) habitat quality as turkeys are decreasing (albeit slower) in quality habitat, too.
4) cresting of carrying capacity (dont make sense...across 75% of US?)
5) known diseases such as blackhead and avian pox.
6) some unknown disease killing adult birds...(where are the dead adults?)

That leaves:
1) something (disease) that is affecting many (not all) of the poults, but not the adults.

Here is the biological I was referring to earlier in this thread. It’s been around here in central Kansas for about three years. I, am sure there were loads of studies done to figure out what viruses do to the bugs and probably no thought to any other downstream possible affects. Well because hey it’s safe for everything else except the Lepidoptera corn earworm, milo head worm and other worm species. Just check the label out. Omri certification too means organic can’t get more organic than virus can you… ?

I’m not sure a bird any bird that ingests an insect killed by a safe virus is all that good. And I work in the ag sector. But I’m not a fan of this by any means…

https://www.agbitech.us/heligen

WhiteCliffs if there’s no burning or management then your 27000ac has changed considerably. Restocking boosted the heyday and now it’s back to where it started…pee poor land and no turkeys. When I have to not set traps in locations or set up cameras because of Turkeys potentially being caught, then you have a good problem.

I will mention something about the podcast. They looked at turkey numbers taken vs license holders. A little misleading there. If I “choose” to not shoot a limit, they shouldn’t count that as a bad thing. Heck a group of us purposely chose to not shoot limits to see if numbers would increase on our properties. It made a difference because neighbors were shooting everything and then some. But again, optimal habitat…trapping twice a year or longer…no decoys.

Found this online in a paper presented in 2016 at the Joint Meeting of the Northeast Forest and Conservation Nursery Association and Southern Forest Nursery Association

"New pesticides and application technologies are also available, such as synthetic pyrethroids for tip moth, weevils, and sawflies. Alternatives for tip moth management include a tablet formulation of imidacloprid and the biorational spinosad. Systemic neonicotinoids are labeled for white grubs, aphids, and scale insects, as are the biorational avermectins for spider mites. Fipronil can be applied to containerized seedlings in the nursery, as well as at planting"

Then found this about Fipronil in a study on its affects on birds in Australia. If its bad for quail we know its bad for turkeys

"Fipronil was moderately toxic to budgerigars and the two finch species tested, but was highly toxic to king quail, which is consistent with reported fipronil sensitivities for other galliforms."

So yes, pine seedlings could be treated with chemicals harmful to turkeys, but I would think planting pines at an 80 basal would be more harmful to turkeys than the insecticide the seedlings are treated with prior to being brought onsite

I’ve notice some odd behavior in the birds the last several years like hens with the gobblers up to the end of the season. In MO last week the gobblers were hanging with the jakes vs the jakes being on their own. Also lone gobblers that had no interest in calling or decoys not afraid just did not care.

Just seems the dispersal has been set back 6-8 weeks for some reasons it could be weather related. SD and WY both moved some season start dates back to late April early May vs early April.

The 27,000 acres became a refuge in the mid 90’s. They stopped timber management at that point - they are protective of the hardwood, but allow it to grow naturally, unmanaged. Ten years ago - after 20 years of no burning and no chemicals - you could hear 10 turkeys a day almost any decent day. In the last ten years, they have gone to basically none. I started hunting walkin areas - no management - on NF land in 1980. Those areas were big mixed pine hardwood forest. No burning, no logging, no herbicides - and they also had turkeys on them ten years ago. Those turkeys are also gone. Forty years ago, in these mature pine/hardwood unburned, no harvest forests, I heard 16 different turkeys while walking one morning. They average killing something like 8 turkeys on 80,000 acres now.

I agree 100% there are many things contributing to the decline of the wild turkey. In the 80’s, when I first started turkey hunting, they could grow turkeys anywhere - and quail, rabbits, cotton rats - ground nesting animals. But EVERY creek and ridge was trapped all season long and coon dogs where heard all night long in every direction. Sweet corn, apples, and peaches could be grown without a concern for loss of crop due to possums, coons, or foxes.

I agree, a lot of places, habitat has changed for the worse - but 25 years ago - turkeys would live and prosper in mediocre habitat because there were half as many predators. I agree, weather - and especially rainy weather - has a detrimental affect - not so much because the nest drowns out - but because a wet hen gives off more sent and more likely for the now very numerous predators to find her. I agree, chemicals/herbicides have the potential to be detrimental to turkeys - both directly and indirectly due to killing insects, etc. And yes, some turkeys are dying of disease - as documented in Alabama.

South Georgia is unique as far as habitat management activities - in my opinion - as there exists a contingent of land owners interested in quail management - where fire is an important component. In most of the rest of the south, hardly anyone even thinks about quail - they have been gone so long. I have not seen one in my area in 30 years. Across much of the south, the typical management practices outside of a corn feeder are food plots. Deer are pretty much the only thing going - and in some local areas - ducks. There are very few three or four thousand acres tracts of private land managed primarily for wildlife. A lot of timber company leases - and the ones around here do not permit clearing for food plots, or burning, or herbicides. The lessees hands are basically tied - other than supplemental feed - and trapping.

Yes, there are many factors contributing to the decline of the turkey - but almost every study indicates the number one DIRECT cause is predation of the nest or poults. Many factors may contribute to predation. Poor habitat can indirectly lead to increased predation - but poor habitat by itself does not typically kill the turkeys.

My 400 acres is light years better in habitat than it was when I bought it 20 years ago. The openings were fescue pasture and the woods were all grazed - without a piece of grass or forb on the ground. Yet there were five fold the turkeys on my place when I bought it than now. Now, all the pasture is native warm season grass or lowland virginia wildrye. The woods are full of grasses and forbs. But, ten years ago, the turkeys disappeared - totally. Six years ago, I started trapping pretty hard in Mar and Apr. Four years ago, we had a hen or two show up in the spring. Two years ago, ago a couple of gobblers along with a few hens. The flock has been slowly building. At least three gobblers and six hens this year.

I am at a dead end with habitat improvement. I have done all I can do with my available resources. And it made no difference with the turkeys - in fact - they disappeared in spite of my efforts. Coincidently or not, after starting my spring trapping effort - I do now have a small flock. Are my neighbors going to convert their fescue pastures to nwsg? No. Are they going to fence the cattle out of their woodlands - no. Are they going to quit spraying 24d or grazon on their pastures - no. I have seen turkeys living on those properties 20 years ago - in quantity - with the same fescue, grazed woods, and herbicide. But no more. The one management technique those land owners could employ that would not effect their cattle ranching livelihood - that MIGHT make a difference for the turkeys - is trapping. The number of coons and possums living in this area now is easily five fold what it was 25 years ago - there is literally no comparison. And bobcats, which were uncommon 20 years ago - are now common.

No way, no how - am I saying trapping will reverse the decline - but it is doing something. Habitat improvements are not an option on millions of acres of private, income producing land across the south - but trapping would interfere very little with ongoing activities.

Below from the Georgia DNR

“What is causing these declines?
We do not have evidence that one single factor has caused turkey populations to decline. It is more likely a combination of multiple factors. The limiting factor on turkey reproduction is predation – a majority of nests and broods are predated each year.”

https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/default/files/wrd/pdf/research/Turkey%20Decline%20Q%26A.pdf

Whitecliffs,

Just as 95% of landowners will not modify their property to increase the turkey population, 95% of landowners will not trap to increase the turkey population either. There is no solution that will lead to widespread change on private lands

Agree or disagree on what is the main cause of decline, I think we can all agree that it is a moot point when there will be no change. We can only control the land we own or have access to and hope that others are educated enough to do the same

100 % agree - there is nothing that can be done widespread - that we know of, yet - that will improve the situation. I do habitat improvement and trapping. There was no difference with habitat improvement. Some positive difference after trapping. But that is my ground. Might be totally different on someone else’s ground. Trapping is probably the cheapest thing to get into - compared to habitat work. But every piece of ground is different.

https://nationalzoo.si.edu/migratory-birds/news/when-it-comes-pesticides-birds-are-sitting-ducks

Read these studies, no doubt any study can be flawed, but at least these aren't in the chemical company's back pocket.