Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: WhiteCliffs]
#7857312
05/01/23 02:56 PM
05/01/23 02:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,137 mo.
nate
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,137
mo.
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The problem with habitat is the same as the problem with removing predators - it will not be done on wide scale. My adjacent three neighbors own 1400, 1200, and 1000 acres respectively. About 50/50 field/woods. They are cattle ranchers. They plant fescue - they dont kill it. And predators not even close 25 years ago to what we have now - except for fox and mink.
How are you going to get landowners to engage in habitat improvements. Our commercial timber companies who used to burn a lot in the 90’s - dont burn at all now. We know there is never going to be much trapping effort again without a significant increase in fur prices.
SW GA somewhat of anomaly when it comes to habitat improvement. In my neck of the woods, very few landowners compromise monetary production of private land to produce more wildlife.
And how does research that finds predators the direct cause put money in someones pocket when the state dnr and turkeys for tomorrow are funding it. It's the chemical company's farm bureau ect.
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Law Dog]
#7857332
05/01/23 03:32 PM
05/01/23 03:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506 Arkansas
WhiteCliffs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506
Arkansas
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But turkeys arent just in crop lands. I know of counties where there is not a row crop field within 50 miles - and they have seen declines - maybe greater than ag.
Last edited by WhiteCliffs; 05/01/23 03:41 PM.
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: WhiteCliffs]
#7857336
05/01/23 03:43 PM
05/01/23 03:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,368 South Ga - Almost Florida
Swamp Wolf
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,368
South Ga - Almost Florida
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But turkeys arent just in crop lands. I know of counties where there is not a row crop field within 50 miles - and hey have seen declines - maybe greater than ag. I have only a few ag fields (compared to counties further north and west).....but I do have intensive forestry management. This is occurring on my 400 acre lease as I'm typing this. About 150 acres will be chopped over next 2 or 3 days this week. Bad timing for the nests and fawns. Then root raking/herbicide/pine row bedding. Long term benefits = good for turkeys and deer. Short term = death. Reckon a nest of eggs or a fawn will survive that?
Thank God For Your Blessings! Never Half-Arse Anything!
Resource Protection Service
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: TreedaBlackdog]
#7857471
05/01/23 06:55 PM
05/01/23 06:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506 Arkansas
WhiteCliffs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506
Arkansas
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Dr Jonathan Lundgren spoke out about neonics while I was up in North Dakota. He was academically and fiscally cancelled from research by any govt funded institution. The USDA is led by past Monsanto reps all the way through leadership.
Habitat destruction or chemicals can kill wildlife overnight. I have killed many turkey nests and fawns with a disc mower and as soon as any crop oil is sprayed on any egg - it can suffocate the embryo by not allowing air exchange through the egg. WS routinely oils geese eggs to prevent nesting success and renesting. Ok - I will give you that. How does it happen on a 27,000 acre NWR where they are not spraying herbicide - or a many Thousand acre walk in area where no management activity occurs at all. It is hard to imagine all the nests and poults dying in these studies are first sprayed with chemical before they turn up dead the next day. I have helped a little on one of these research projects where the predators devastated the nests - and there was no chemical used anywhere near the area. To get get the research conclusions to provide false information would require a dozen people - maybe more - to contribute to the lie - and most of these researchers are not democrats.
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: WhiteCliffs]
#7857473
05/01/23 06:56 PM
05/01/23 06:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,137 mo.
nate
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,137
mo.
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Does poor habitat or chemicals destroy nests and kill poults overnight? Poor reproduction,
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Law Dog]
#7857492
05/01/23 07:19 PM
05/01/23 07:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,368 South Ga - Almost Florida
Swamp Wolf
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,368
South Ga - Almost Florida
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I think we are all looking for a primary reason to blame due to the fact that the decline is occurring across most of the continental US.
Problem can't be entirely:
1) predators...as their populations haven't changed much over decades. 2) pesticides especially in non-ag country. 3) habitat quality as turkeys are decreasing (albeit slower) in quality habitat, too. 4) cresting of carrying capacity (dont make sense...across 75% of US?) 5) known diseases such as blackhead and avian pox. 6) some unknown disease killing adult birds...(where are the dead adults?)
That leaves: 1) something (disease) that is affecting many (not all) of the poults, but not the adults.
Thank God For Your Blessings! Never Half-Arse Anything!
Resource Protection Service
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Law Dog]
#7857603
05/01/23 10:00 PM
05/01/23 10:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 118 Kansas
Kansasace2
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Kansas
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Here is the biological I was referring to earlier in this thread. It’s been around here in central Kansas for about three years. I, am sure there were loads of studies done to figure out what viruses do to the bugs and probably no thought to any other downstream possible affects. Well because hey it’s safe for everything else except the Lepidoptera corn earworm, milo head worm and other worm species. Just check the label out. Omri certification too means organic can’t get more organic than virus can you… ? I’m not sure a bird any bird that ingests an insect killed by a safe virus is all that good. And I work in the ag sector. But I’m not a fan of this by any means… https://www.agbitech.us/heligen
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: claycreech]
#7857850
05/02/23 09:42 AM
05/02/23 09:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,139 NC - Here there and everywhere
coondagger2
"Brat"
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"Brat"
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,139
NC - Here there and everywhere
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i wonder if pine seedlings are treated with Neonics? Found this online in a paper presented in 2016 at the Joint Meeting of the Northeast Forest and Conservation Nursery Association and Southern Forest Nursery Association "New pesticides and application technologies are also available, such as synthetic pyrethroids for tip moth, weevils, and sawflies. Alternatives for tip moth management include a tablet formulation of imidacloprid and the biorational spinosad. Systemic neonicotinoids are labeled for white grubs, aphids, and scale insects, as are the biorational avermectins for spider mites. Fipronil can be applied to containerized seedlings in the nursery, as well as at planting" Then found this about Fipronil in a study on its affects on birds in Australia. If its bad for quail we know its bad for turkeys "Fipronil was moderately toxic to budgerigars and the two finch species tested, but was highly toxic to king quail, which is consistent with reported fipronil sensitivities for other galliforms." So yes, pine seedlings could be treated with chemicals harmful to turkeys, but I would think planting pines at an 80 basal would be more harmful to turkeys than the insecticide the seedlings are treated with prior to being brought onsite
Gotta live up to the nickname...
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Law Dog]
#7857895
05/02/23 10:52 AM
05/02/23 10:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,900 Central, SD
Law Dog
OP
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OP
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Central, SD
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I’ve notice some odd behavior in the birds the last several years like hens with the gobblers up to the end of the season. In MO last week the gobblers were hanging with the jakes vs the jakes being on their own. Also lone gobblers that had no interest in calling or decoys not afraid just did not care.
Just seems the dispersal has been set back 6-8 weeks for some reasons it could be weather related. SD and WY both moved some season start dates back to late April early May vs early April.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Wanna Be]
#7857905
05/02/23 11:13 AM
05/02/23 11:13 AM
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Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506 Arkansas
WhiteCliffs
trapper
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trapper
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Arkansas
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The 27,000 acres became a refuge in the mid 90’s. They stopped timber management at that point - they are protective of the hardwood, but allow it to grow naturally, unmanaged. Ten years ago - after 20 years of no burning and no chemicals - you could hear 10 turkeys a day almost any decent day. In the last ten years, they have gone to basically none. I started hunting walkin areas - no management - on NF land in 1980. Those areas were big mixed pine hardwood forest. No burning, no logging, no herbicides - and they also had turkeys on them ten years ago. Those turkeys are also gone. Forty years ago, in these mature pine/hardwood unburned, no harvest forests, I heard 16 different turkeys while walking one morning. They average killing something like 8 turkeys on 80,000 acres now.
I agree 100% there are many things contributing to the decline of the wild turkey. In the 80’s, when I first started turkey hunting, they could grow turkeys anywhere - and quail, rabbits, cotton rats - ground nesting animals. But EVERY creek and ridge was trapped all season long and coon dogs where heard all night long in every direction. Sweet corn, apples, and peaches could be grown without a concern for loss of crop due to possums, coons, or foxes.
I agree, a lot of places, habitat has changed for the worse - but 25 years ago - turkeys would live and prosper in mediocre habitat because there were half as many predators. I agree, weather - and especially rainy weather - has a detrimental affect - not so much because the nest drowns out - but because a wet hen gives off more sent and more likely for the now very numerous predators to find her. I agree, chemicals/herbicides have the potential to be detrimental to turkeys - both directly and indirectly due to killing insects, etc. And yes, some turkeys are dying of disease - as documented in Alabama.
South Georgia is unique as far as habitat management activities - in my opinion - as there exists a contingent of land owners interested in quail management - where fire is an important component. In most of the rest of the south, hardly anyone even thinks about quail - they have been gone so long. I have not seen one in my area in 30 years. Across much of the south, the typical management practices outside of a corn feeder are food plots. Deer are pretty much the only thing going - and in some local areas - ducks. There are very few three or four thousand acres tracts of private land managed primarily for wildlife. A lot of timber company leases - and the ones around here do not permit clearing for food plots, or burning, or herbicides. The lessees hands are basically tied - other than supplemental feed - and trapping.
Yes, there are many factors contributing to the decline of the turkey - but almost every study indicates the number one DIRECT cause is predation of the nest or poults. Many factors may contribute to predation. Poor habitat can indirectly lead to increased predation - but poor habitat by itself does not typically kill the turkeys.
My 400 acres is light years better in habitat than it was when I bought it 20 years ago. The openings were fescue pasture and the woods were all grazed - without a piece of grass or forb on the ground. Yet there were five fold the turkeys on my place when I bought it than now. Now, all the pasture is native warm season grass or lowland virginia wildrye. The woods are full of grasses and forbs. But, ten years ago, the turkeys disappeared - totally. Six years ago, I started trapping pretty hard in Mar and Apr. Four years ago, we had a hen or two show up in the spring. Two years ago, ago a couple of gobblers along with a few hens. The flock has been slowly building. At least three gobblers and six hens this year.
I am at a dead end with habitat improvement. I have done all I can do with my available resources. And it made no difference with the turkeys - in fact - they disappeared in spite of my efforts. Coincidently or not, after starting my spring trapping effort - I do now have a small flock. Are my neighbors going to convert their fescue pastures to nwsg? No. Are they going to fence the cattle out of their woodlands - no. Are they going to quit spraying 24d or grazon on their pastures - no. I have seen turkeys living on those properties 20 years ago - in quantity - with the same fescue, grazed woods, and herbicide. But no more. The one management technique those land owners could employ that would not effect their cattle ranching livelihood - that MIGHT make a difference for the turkeys - is trapping. The number of coons and possums living in this area now is easily five fold what it was 25 years ago - there is literally no comparison. And bobcats, which were uncommon 20 years ago - are now common.
No way, no how - am I saying trapping will reverse the decline - but it is doing something. Habitat improvements are not an option on millions of acres of private, income producing land across the south - but trapping would interfere very little with ongoing activities.
Below from the Georgia DNR
“What is causing these declines? We do not have evidence that one single factor has caused turkey populations to decline. It is more likely a combination of multiple factors. The limiting factor on turkey reproduction is predation – a majority of nests and broods are predated each year.”
https://georgiawildlife.com/sites/default/files/wrd/pdf/research/Turkey%20Decline%20Q%26A.pdf
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: Law Dog]
#7858002
05/02/23 01:17 PM
05/02/23 01:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,139 NC - Here there and everywhere
coondagger2
"Brat"
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"Brat"
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,139
NC - Here there and everywhere
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Whitecliffs,
Just as 95% of landowners will not modify their property to increase the turkey population, 95% of landowners will not trap to increase the turkey population either. There is no solution that will lead to widespread change on private lands
Agree or disagree on what is the main cause of decline, I think we can all agree that it is a moot point when there will be no change. We can only control the land we own or have access to and hope that others are educated enough to do the same
Gotta live up to the nickname...
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Re: MO a bust so far
[Re: coondagger2]
#7858047
05/02/23 02:36 PM
05/02/23 02:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506 Arkansas
WhiteCliffs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 506
Arkansas
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Whitecliffs,
Just as 95% of landowners will not modify their property to increase the turkey population, 95% of landowners will not trap to increase the turkey population either. There is no solution that will lead to widespread change on private lands
Agree or disagree on what is the main cause of decline, I think we can all agree that it is a moot point when there will be no change. We can only control the land we own or have access to and hope that others are educated enough to do the same 100 % agree - there is nothing that can be done widespread - that we know of, yet - that will improve the situation. I do habitat improvement and trapping. There was no difference with habitat improvement. Some positive difference after trapping. But that is my ground. Might be totally different on someone else’s ground. Trapping is probably the cheapest thing to get into - compared to habitat work. But every piece of ground is different.
Last edited by WhiteCliffs; 05/02/23 02:42 PM.
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