Which fork are you taking?
My department just announced a early retirement option on top of the resignation program.

Decisions Decisions

Work or not to work

I made my decision 2 1/2 years ago.

Im couple years short of mra and 5 years short of 30 years , 500 a month more in 5 years and 800 more at 62 . Guess if they offer the supplement till i hit social security age its a thought.

Are you FERS? If so, you should get the supplement. It got to where I just didn't enjoy the politics, and I live a pretty simple lifestyle, so I just pulled the pin.

God has TRULY given this country another chance!

Im only 8 years in so the pot wasn’t sweet enough. If they offered a two year severance package (which is what Elon mentioned on a podcast) I would have seriously considered it

160 yes fers, but it doesn't kick in untill mra by opm website.

.my 25 th anniversary is February 6th

I was FERS "Special" so was eligible after 20 years at 50 or any age with 25 years. I was mandatory at 57 anyway.

I would have guessed that those relatively close to retirement age and those just barely into the system (zero to 7-8 years or so) would be interested in the buyout.

For those who've already invested a fair amount into the "system" (10-20 years), it would be tough to walk away from their pensions.

Yep thats the hard part for me , the extra 7 years i need to hit 62 covers the house payment in retirement with the added amount.

Just not alot of wild horse corrals in the private sector

Got 21 years in this year and 5 more before I am eligible for retirement. It's tempting but the benefits and I just took a loan out on my tsp ( probably shouldn't have, but I wanted a side by side). Not really sure what to think or how's it's all going to play out. I am ready for a change but have some really good folks from all over the country that depend on me and don't want to abandon them. Middle management is hard to fill and ( in fire) we are losing lots of knowledge and experience.

I'd like to visit your scene, nv.

sounds like a good gig!

At this point its a job , supervising sucks and we are lowest on the priority list, my guys dang sure don't get pay or recognized for what they do

no doubt.

the guys actually DOING good on-the-ground work never get the recognition they deserve.

White even worse these guys are wage grade and viewed as blue coller so no career path even

Fire Hire from 2000 is going to leave a BIG hole in the fire organization. You are going to see a mass exit in the next 12 months and it is going to be ugly on the ground.

I worked in a similar system, so I get what you're saying. for me personally, I would have had a decent career path, but I was outspoken, so....

it is pretty sucky for those who don't have the opportunity to advance, through no fault of their own.

Im 59 with 23 years in and seen emails flying all week and no clue what any of it means. Probably cause my idea of retiring is being lowered into a hole in some skull orchard.

Thank you to the op for starting the thread. It is easy to forget the ground troops of the fed when this is the visual most people get when they think about federal employees.

I wont quit working till my health forces it. I have put my self into a position where I work when I want to. I have done that for quite some time now. I don't drive an 80,000 dollar pickup or vacation in Cannes. My wife doesn't drive a Cadillac. We eat good though and the roof don't leak. When you do move into the skull orchard if you know its time and your reflecting on your life, I seriously doubt you will regret not working more.

For those not at MRA and have a lot of years in, I'd stick it out and make them RIF you first. For those of us at 62 or above, maybe, especially if you're going to take SS right away. For folks not very deep in years, maybe its an opportunity to take any learned skills and/or expanded knowledge and see if it can transfer to the private side of things. My Army kid is getting out after 6 years towards the end of the year and has some anxiety about adjusting to civilian life and starting school as a non-trad.

I'm not planning to go for another couple of years unless they RIF me. I'd be 64 but would only have about 18 years of service in. I'm not going to stop working (having other revenue streams that are not transfer payments incoming ) so I don't want to take SS then because I don't want their chains on me about how much I can earn before the 2 for 1 thing kicks in. I would actually like to hold off taking SS until I'm 70 and max that out and supplement between ages 64 and 70 with what SS would have paid me out of my TSP. We'll see, a lot of water has to go down stream before both the short and longer term things play out. Reality is only reality when the days actually pass.

For the stay at home whiners who are either close to retiring anyway or those you only have a few years in, yeah, take the option and I wish them a nice life. Most of the people I work with are extremely liberal and there's one guy who has only done 2 days a pay period in office since we returned from forced office 'vid exile because because he wants to save on vehicle emissions from his commute out to our place (its out in the country about 10 miles from the city and he probably has to do another 5 to get to the edge of the city from his house). This guy also thought I gave him a "Nazi salute" in years past (long before Elon's "my heart out to you" thing a few weeks back) in the way I sort of did a sweeping wave to him out in our big open space area. I'd love to see him and few others take the option.

P.S. nvwranger-- How bad is your exotic annual grass situation in your area after you have rangeland fires and those take out the sagebrush?

One of the guys I wish that would take the option from our place does a lot of that stuff annual mapping. Just curious about your range situation.

Pc cheat grass is everywhere and bad especially after a fire event or over grazing by dinks.

Hobbie my guys are cowboys, they hunt, trap and drink and fight. I would put money that our shop was 100% Trump.

Just curious... did "your guys" also get that email?

Yote, yep everyone got the same email, unfortunately for my guys they won't qualify for the early retirement , either short on time served or under 50.

We have over 12,000 horses in corrals in Nevada and are only half staffed. All 3 managers qualify for early retirement with these offers, 1 is going for sure but myself and the other one are just young enough and short enough on time to make it a super hard decision . Our staff and managers don't have telework options and even during lasp in funding are required to show up every day 365 days a year. In fact I worked Christmas morning after the call my sister was passing before i left town to see her. These guys have all worked the trades and chose to be here for the type of work and stability. Good thing they all married well above their pay grade as without their wives they couldn't afford to live or buy a house in the area here.

I've never regretted retiring. I've never heard anyone that retired say they wished they hadn't.

27 years of state employment. Home has been paid for for years My Tundra is paid for.

Just living the dream!

Swamp i wish i was there but about 5 years short of paid off

nvwrangler- It would be interesting to know about how this whole wild horses program works. Maybe you've explained it before in a thread AND/OR maybe the AAA fire on this site that it would probably generate isn't worth the effort in explaining it.

I'm fairly neutral on the western wild horses situation. I think there's a niche for them but I'd have no problem culling a bunch as well. Most Americans now have soft spots for anything that's domesticated, could be domesticated, or looks like something domesticated so I understand why the effort exists. I think the soft spot situation stems mostly from having fewer children or no children at all. And that situation a lot of times is amplified because close family often is far away so people treat domestic animals as semi-human. It is what it is.

Anyway, it might be an interesting story to tell.

I'm confused. What do you do? It's sounds as if you're some sort of cowboy. I didn't know there were cowboys in federal government positions? I imagine there's a lot I don't know. I know there's federal trappers. Just wondering what department you work for, and what it is you do?

Most anything to do with rangeland is gonna be BLM, USFS deals with timber ground, USFWS wetlands usually.

I run a couple of blm wild horse corrals, there are actually several different cowboy type jobs in the federal government. From the wild horse program with the blm to herding bison for the park service. Cowboys chasing cattle that swim the Rio Grand to mule packers and pack strings in wilderness areas.

I started as a in the saddle every day horse wrangler, i was on a gather crew catching burros in Az then on to a feedlot type operation in Nv that ive become the manager of plus a second contract facility that i supervise.

Ill have to post about the program some time but due to the polarization i tend to not share alot about my job. Heck most of us won't admit who we work for when out hunting or cowboying as BLM isn't liked by most ag folks.

nvwranger, I totally get it. Maybe tell about the program when you retire. Some people think I can read their vehicle license plates from space. Well, not with my rig. But then, we're not the "cool alphabet soup kids" that may have such assets. Hard to look at broad landscapes at six inch resolution. That would be a seriously big pile of imagery data...

Your in box is full.

Pc not too worried about this group but you never know lol

Ill dang sure answer questions and if anyone has a lead for a fall elk camp cook spot im looking?

This thread is good… Looks like outcome based job appraisals are finally in vogue…. Who would have thought?.

Fixed

Ya we're not the problem it's middle and upper management and support staff that bloats the ranks

No doubt, glad it’s getting fleshed out GSA- IG- treasury you name it… four billion a day?

What is the reason for 12,000 horses in corrals? I know at time wild horses were put up for adoption/sale. Do they still do that? What is the cost to keep a horse a year there?

I expect it's a lot, and I heard most are not adoptable, but they can't be slaughtered so they build up....I may be wrong, so NV I'm sure can answer...

If it wasn't for the bleeding hearts, be cheaper to send in a team and just shoot them, or send them to Mexico for burritos, at least it might partially cover some expenses.

Horse meat is pretty good. Most folks here shy off the idea of eating it but I believe most would dig right in if not told what it was. Good dog feed also. Its a real shame that they are not being utilized. Its a vibrant market for human consumption in other countries. Controlling the number of wild horses is as important as controlling any other animal.

Just like a lot of other stuff people watch all these wonderful movies about mustangs. They buy one from BLM and then can't do anything with it. Some are smart enough to hire someone to ride it for them. My grandson has been making some decent money doing that. Riding horses for people that bought domestic bred as well.

There are people with large pastures being paid by the government to board them. Its just nuts the amount of money spent on them instead of allowing people to make money. There are still a few cowboys left that could catch and sell them. If there was some money in it more would learn.

There is getting to be more and more folks that pucker up at the idea of anyone making money from wildlife and I just dont get it.

Using our tax dollars to feed and care for horses, including anyone paid by the feds to do it, is a waste of our tax dollars.

Same can be said for most federal programs and employees and most state and local programs and employees.

Be that as it may, I don't begrudge anyone for taking advantage of federal jobs, they don't make policy, just working a job they were hired to do....

So True

I personally realize taking care of livestock is hard work--but still a waste of taxpayer dollars. Same goes for the money paid to big landowners to foster, or whatever, those horses in Oklahoma and elsewhere.

A lot of the government employees however are not really "working a job." They're lazy government workers with civil service protections and perks. It's been a scam on taxpayers for a long time.

Some obvious exceptions to this general rule exist.

I won't hire former government lawyers or support staff for that reason. I stop reading the resume when I get to that line. You will never get the same level of production from them.

That's interesting....without knowing them , or their circumstances, your showing a bias strictly over where they might have worked before... what happened to hiring the best person for the job?...
Maybe they're not, but you'll never know.

Well this was a civil conversation about the current offers and my job until a lawer had to spout off, what that liar i mean lawyer posted, the reason we have these programs and cant get rid of them or reduce them is due to lawerz.

I refrained from commenting after the first post but if we're getting rid of useless professions i know where I'd start.

Some one needs to go chase an ambulance and not get my thread removed.

NVW, Good for you working such a unique job in all aspects.

There isn't hardly a facet in the horse or cattle industry , BLM, outfitters, show circuit, et al., that doesn't entail hardworking folks to keep it all a success. Right down to the camp cook...of which I have done also, along with other jobs of outfitting . I ended up liking the show circuit , cross-country, and endurance eventing the most.

That's a lot of haarses you deal with. BLM feral horses are as fiery a subject as grizzles and wuffs , it seems. There are FB groups and websites solely dedicated to certain herds of feral horses , all named and followed by who knows who all over the world. I'll bet none of them realizing the work they take and the impact on habitat and surrounding ranches. I wouldn't be surprised if the star actors sport GPS and chip insert bling.

Though there are those horses who are exceptions in training, to me, the majority I see , are not my choice due to conformation preferences that I have . IMO.

Danny is right, the industry here would benefit from feral horse products, as it does in other countries. I ride with a friend in Idaho, who has at any time a decent herd of riding horses , and some of those, due to circumstance , when they are culled, the owners butcher them for their protein usage. It raised an eyebrow for me when I was offered lunch with some tasty bologna , and was told it was from a horse that I rode for them at times .

Regardless of other opinions of what sponsors this job you and your cowboys have, I am glad that you have a niche in this very unique industry .

If there was no one to do this work, there would be other big concerns affecting land and ranching , that would have its own impacts that the antis would howl about. I would think there has to be some balance in this Govt. sponsored work until some kind of solution is possibly reached. It would solve a lot, I suppose, if those feral horse FB groups spent THEIR funds on the work needed to deal with those herds rather than US government funds. That's probably too much to ask.

I agree, I enjoyed learning about your job NVR.

I apologize for offending you and acknowledge it must be hard work. The discussion deviated to taxpayers paying to keep horses. I stand by that being a waste of taxpayer dollars. Same for most government jobs, but again my apologies. I was not commenting on you personally.

Experience having made the mistake. Exceptions exist if you can get them early in their career.

Sharon thanks for the thoughtful post, yes those of us in the animal husbandry feilds don't do it cause its the easiest job out there but because we enjoy it.
Yes there is things that could be done better however its government and the decisions are largely made far away by suits that have no clue .
I have always said that instead of feeding them for life lets package this protein and use it for disaster relief emergency rations. May not be politically correct but not eating vs a case of burger being handed to you , i think some of the reservations about it go away fast.
Congress passed the law and limits what, when and where management can take place, its not going away but like any natural resource it needs managed.

This comment mostly applies to my job (office work within the DoD or other federal entities). I always make the joke that you should not be allowed to have a job in the federal government if you have never worked somewhere else. I call those people institutionalized. They have only worked for the government and they think it is hard work. The same people believe they deserve all of the perks instead of understanding they are privileges

Blain , I accept your apology. I too agree there is government waste and bloated numbers in federal service, but most feild staff are not the issue it s the layers and layers of management and support staff that doesn't actually support .

Its like electing law makers , they feel like they have to creat more and more laws and regulations to prove they are needed, not to review whats already in place to see if they are no longer needed.

Government workers and lawers are both necessary evils on some level, I think we could agree that there are way too many of both.

I hauled explosives and acid for the Hercules powder company out of the Sunflower Army Ammunition plant for about 3 years. There were Army officers there overseeing everything. I quit cause it was hard to look myself in the eye when I shaved. Between the Teamsters Union and it being a cost plus job I only averaged maybe 10 hours out of forty actually working. Seriously. The more money Hercules could spend the more money they made. Place closed a few years later. I suspect there are a lot of government jobs like that. Not all but a lot.

Danny you should see the far books( federal acquisition regulations) it would shoch you there are 2 or 3 books over 6 inches thick with rules on how to spend money, in fact there's a whole industry just to teach us those rules lol.

I agree with this. Most of my professional and personal experience is with the government desk jockeys.

And thank you.

Hey NVwrangler. Thanks for explaining what you do, and I'm sorry that my asking about it painted a target on your back.

I don't feel you did that, Angela. I do know some need to put on their big boy pants and acknowledge the various nuances that make some people's jobs very necessary , over the wasted funding of other subjects. NVW's work is one of those needed services to OUR BLM land.

" As long as there's need for cowboys, Ill have work"...... Rip , Yellowstone

I am 57 with 25 years federal service. We all got the email but most occupations in our department are exempt/critical for public health. Only had two employees take the deal but their occupations are exempted so they are required to keep working while waiting to resign in September.

I don't plan on going anywhere.

Yikes, one report I read says 50 grand per horse, that being said they are protected by a law from Congress that was signed by Nixon. Europe still eats them, set up a processing plant and start shooting but that would take some courage from Congress, not going to happen.

Same boat I'm in. My retirement party will be held at Browne's Funeral Home. Check the obituary. There should be plenty of seats.

I will not ever quit working untill I can't. that said I will retire the day I'm eligible to draw my pension LORD willing and pivot on to something else I enjoy doing. I will be 57 and one month old and hopefully will still be healthy with a lot of life to live.

This is one area that needs improvements in the Government. The FARS are complicated and confusing. Even worse, they are expensive. If you need to buy TP, you can't just go to Walmart with a USG card and buy it. You need to buy it from "Lighthouse for the Blind" or whoever has the contract even though it may be cheaper locally. A purchasing agent needs to fill out the paperwork along with correct charge code and then email the form. Once the butt wipe arrives, they need to verify it is all there and then get on the computer to "process" the purchase in the computer program. Once completed, the next level supervisor needs to log into the same system and approve the transaction. Honestly, I bet there are 2-4 man hours spent just to order a case of Mountain Money. It is just crazy.

The plan for my department seems to be let those folks accept this offer, force everyone else in office 5 days a week until some quit, rif to the number you want to present to the public. Then bring back mandatory overtime, pay the remaing folks 3 times as much and work them until they break. Then let them go. Then lower the standards and hire unqualified replacements or contract the work out. We'll I am one of those work from home folks and here's what I'll say, I have dedicated my entire adult life to this country, I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and I serve Veterans and their families everyday. I work an 8.5 hour day from home, I always start at least 30 min early and if there is something unfinished at the end of the day I work it until complete, no matter how long it takes. This is all unpaid I do it because that's what my fellow Veterans deserve.... but I guess in the end that apparently means I'm not a loyal hardworking public servant

You are obviously a rare exception to millions of parasites the Donald is trying to stomp out .....the bleeding has to stop

I voted the same as most folks on here I assume, I think those comments are just parroted lines most folks hear. The money / bleeding won't change, it will just be presented differently in public. That same money will be used to hire the "all saving" contractor who is paying off some politician. You'll feel good about yourself and the same amount of money you pay in taxes. Some of these services shouldnt be stopped i.e Veterans services but the money will just be funneled to more lower paid less qualified workers and that will make everyone smile except for Veterans waiting on benefits they have more than earned through their service to this great nation.

not to be disrespectful in anyway. but from a nongovernmental employees perspective. Just take a look at how inefficient every thing the government does is.

The post office is the first example I can think of. It's going broke yet UPS, Fed x and DHL make great profits and are typically faster amd more reliable at least I'm my area.

The private sector is typically much more efficient.

Wild , im sure you help however from what i saw 2 weeks ago the VA needs help bad. Vets are forced to park across a 2 lane road then walk to the hospital here. Its up hill all the way to the elevator. Dad is 100% disabled hard to walk let alone those in wheelchair and on walkers. Dad then had to check in on 3rx floor , go for blood on 2nd floor, back to 3rd floor. Families left waiting with no communication till 15 mins before wheel him out. The number of and lack of compassion by staff was Appling.

Sorry no reason everyone isn't in the office being held to standards.

I do agree, but I don't think wholesale slaughter is the way to go. There were alot more surgical ways to remove the tumors than with a butter knife and a smile

Wild i agree, but with the pay and benefits government offers we don't get the best workers anyways, unless they are like you and helping for a reason. You won't want to hear this but we need to change vets preference because it screws us over in my dept

No I get that part I have no problem being in the office. For clarification I don't work for that part of the VA

NVW 100% agree, and we do have standards that are measured both by quality raters and daily production plus keystoke and video monitors, clearly something that is not being advertised

Like I said I think the sledgehammer approach is less effective than a surgical one

There are dang good people that do the jobs they do not for the pay but inspite of it. We need government reform and to shrink the size of government. Wish we had more info and an actual plan so I can make informed decisions. Thats why I asked the question i did when starting this thread , to see what other federal employees were hearing and thinking.

NVW thanks this is a good thread, hopefully nothing I said gets it axed, good discussions

Wild thank you we should be good, funny how respectful everyone is when , the name has a face with it.

Are you aware how many packages UPS and FEDEX hand off the USPS for final delivery? Especially non profitable items and to areas out of the way and not profitable ? Also....those private companies can raise their rates at any time. USPS has to jump through hoops and get approval from the postal governing board etc to raise a penny. And when they do...people like you complain.....not only that...USPS employees and retirees have been removed from FEHB and been separated to PSHB Postal Service Health Benefits. USPS pool is significantly smaller now raising rates Anyone retiring now will be forced to take Medicare part B when they reach 65. If they don't, they lose their health benefits through USPS. Part B becomes primary payer.....you know..the old Bernie Sanders Medicare for all plan. USPS retirees are the Guinea pigs.....I wonder why the rest of the Feds aren't doing this.....Congress critters sure don't want it.

LTman you made my case for me. Government inefficiency at its finest can't raise prices when needed or figure out how to charge and off set higher cost deliveries. Now geting offended I see it shows when you attempt to act like you know how I would react to rate increases. Nope I don't mind paying for quality service.

Once again funny how UPS has 100% employees paid healt insurance or at least did a year or so ago when I was talking with my friend that's worked there 22 years. Infact the best health care coverage I have ever heard of.
But the government ran services is having problems.

I've shipped a couple thousand packages through USPS selling on ebay over the years and maybe 5 have gotten lost (I think a couple to HI actually got stolen at the residence) and maybe 5 more that took a couple weeks to show up. The post office here in suburban land is much easier to do than either FedEx or UPS. DHL, h..., I've never seen one of their trucks in this metro, although I did see and photograph their big air hub somewhere in Ohio once.

For a long stretch of time packages would show delivered to my house and after a week or two my wife would file lost package paperwork. And about 40% of the time it would show up about a week or so later.
After a while if there were shipping options available it was the last choice. That was about a 13 month stretch.
make a trip to the post office and it may or may not be open. Mail may come daily or every few days.
I suspect it's a local man powered issue. Mostly the post ovf being open depends on if the people chose to show up to work.

I was guessing the drivers skipped sections of the rout either because of being short handed or they took the day oof and delivered it later. I figured I was taking the day off paid since the package showed marked delivered and they had not been and they wanted them to look like they had been. I can't be sure of why only guess to that. But they were not delivered when they said they were.
Edit. this is the post office...

Post office is way more convenient here, even though their hours are odd, they are generally cheaper for small packages and much closer. Ups is reliable and cheaper on large and/or heavy packages, but an hour farther away. Fed Ex is the absolutely last option, their employees are bottom of the barrel, aren't smart enough to read addresses and the packages are always beat to pieces, not surprising, whenever I have been here when they deliver, they open the back of the truck and nothing is on the shelves or organized, just a big pile of packages on the floor they paw through until they find (hopefully) the right package. Plus everything shipped Fed Ex regardless of where it comes from goes to Troutdale Oregon (about six hours west of me, and most of them are coming from the East and have to be trucked past me) and kicks around there anywhere from a day to a week or two, before it comes back to me. I always cringe when something I order is coming Fed Ex, and to ship using them I would have to drive even farther than for UPS.

I've seen a DHL truck on the interstate while traveling before, but wasn't even aware they delivered to noncommercial don't think they do this area.

USPS here gets to Kansas City then just sits there. Sometimes we dont get any mail delivered to the post office. No mail. None. It goes to Ottawa first then here to burg. Never gets to Ottawa some days. I dont know what is going on in KC but its bad. UPS and FEDX both deliver to the house. USPS will not. UPS and FEDX deliver when they say they will. USPS is more often than not a week late. Have to go to Lawrence today because my wifes W2 has disappeared into the black hole of KC distribution.

Fed ex is a joke, just had to drive to Arkansas to get what i ordered cause for two weeks they hauled it back and forth. Goofy girl driver last week drove out on a iron bridge on an abandoned road and got stuck in the fed ex van and had to get a wrecker to get it out, she was charged with dui, lol. No clue how fed ex stay's in business. Quit fooling with ups probably 25 years ago.

Private industry isn't always the solution. It baffles me what is passed on as good work by the private engineering firms we deal with. I am an Engineer for a public entity, not federal but state. We design and construct a majority of our projects but we can't design them all. I think we have 47 active projects right now and there are only 3 Engineers in the department. We designed probably 30 of those 47.

One project that I am putting out for bids soon is a consultant/private designed project. 20 million dollar project. It is almost 2 years behind schedule because it took them 4 tries to get their erosion control permit, 4 tries to get through county/city permitting, and 3 tries to get through health department permitting. All of the issues they had were very simple things that should be elementary for Engineers.

The cherry on top is that when they sent me their final plans for construction they were pitiful. Misnumbering of sheets, their keynote callouts didn't match the legend, storm drain pipes that decreased in size as the run went on, you name it. Just pitiful quality control on a set of plans that is YEARS in the making. This consultant on just this project has been paid more than what our entire department budget is yearly.

It's not just that company either, we have had very similar experiences with private engineering firms on the last 4 or 5 projects. Heck, last year we started designing a culvert project at the same time that a consultant was hired to design another culvert project.

The culvert we designed has been designed, bid, constructed, and final permitted. The consultant designed culvert doesn't even have a complete design yet, and now they are asking us to do the construction administration and inspections on it.

People only see construction timelines and don't realize all that goes on behind the scenes to get to that point. Private industry is not always the fastest route. In my field it is usually a way to spend more money and double the time it takes to get something done.

Passing an audit for all govt offices should be mandatory. Within DOD we have failed now I believe for over 5 years. Billions of dollars unaccounted for. Getting rid of the FAR restrictions and cutting govt contracts would be what I would start with. Allowing field employees to give input to DOGE would be a great idea of how to cut expenses. Eliminating much of the restrictions and non-sensical regulations would help. Common sense would be good. DOD just issued guidance on what a man and woman is - seriously.

Sometimes , but not always , a successful company that is busy won't bother to bid on government projects due to all the red tape ...leaving wannabes to step in

Not saying that's your situation .....but something to consider

Unfortunately we can't bid out professional services. We bid out construction.

We have to put out requests for qualifications for engineering services and then select the highest qualified firm. Money does not even come into the conversation until after they are hired.

Just because a firm has been around for a hundred years and is the most qualified on paper does not mean they actually will provide you with a quality product, but our qualifications selection process is set up to favor those that have been around a long time doing similar projects.

I've noticed newer firms with younger engineers provide a much better final product because they want/need your future business.

Sounds like government can't even figure out how to run a selection process to get a good company from what you've said. Government sets up selection process, makes selections bases off the results, then blaime those thay selections they selected for the incompetent job preformance.

Sounds like it's the selection process and folks doing the selections failure to me.
Do they ever read Google reviews, or word of mouth reference, and why don't you have firms that have done good work for you in the past continue doing the work?

Well heck since you know so much, do you want a job?

In all seriousness, I will agree that the selection criteria we have to follow are frustrating. You can't always pick who you want and at the end of the day the final decision is up to the department whose project it is. For example the fire chief makes the final selection on the design firm for a new fire department. We give our input but that isn't the final word.

And I have also learned that word of mouth/references cannot be trusted. Even firms that have done good work in the past. It is such a volatile field that a firm that did good work for you 3 years ago can be made up of completely different people now.

Or a firm that did good work for you can assign a different engineer to be the leader of the project and they can have a completely different level of competence than the last engineer you dealt with.

Really you don't know until you get into it and see who the project team is and how they are working. If there was a way for us to terminate a contract after a couple months and select the next person things would probably go a lot smoother, but that won't ever be allowed. Really we need to be selecting the smaller firms that are hungrier for work and do a good job, but qualifications based selection processes are set up to pick the large corporate firms that have been around forever

Sounds like a mess. And I didn’t think about how much people change jobs and turn over in companies these days. It to bad you can't make selection based on the individual doing the job more than the company they are currently working for. That way if a guy you really likes changed companies or maybe starts his own your geting the individual or team rather than the company. Would give companies incentive to keep high performers happy and working for them as well.

Not long before I retired we had a new building built. It didn't go to the lowest bidder, it went to a HUB Zone (Historically Underutilized Business) bidder. It was a Charlie Foxtrot from the beginning. Part of the contract was for a basement/storm shelter under the building. When construction was 80% complete the "Engineers" did an inspection and realized that the basement was not handicap accessible and therefore we couldn't have it. They paid the contractor to haul the same dirt back in and FILL a newly constructed basement. The rates they charged for doing this was OUTRAGEOUS too.

160 I can beat that , we are trying to get a new shop building for equipment Maintenace. It requires 14 foot doors for the big forklift to fit, its designed as 60 x 24 with single slope roof low side at 16 foot eve. On the 90% plan call I asked how 2 14 foot doors can both be rolled up on the drive thru bay when the building is only 24 wide. Then the engineer from the government caught that the rafters hung down 2 feet below the eves making it a 12 foot clearance. Was asked if we could just get new equipment so it would work. And the cost will be 4 or 5 times what private sector would be because of the FAR

Not all engineers graduate at the top of their class..
My son is a mechanical/systems engineer for a top military contractor, he just recently had to reassign one of his team because of shoddy work, so even at that high level they get clunkers.
His best friend is management civil engineer , he's always complaining how hard it is to get good engineers, not all engineering schools are top level, so lots of misfits graduate and start entry level jobs where the bosses hope they can catch up to what they should already know.

When I worked construction and inside my plant now Typically engineers are arrogant and cocky. They tend to act condescending and can't see the potential problems that are obvious or the simple solutions. Most of the time I believe it's because they get out of school and think now they have that degree it means they are knowledgeable. They are wrong it means they are educated. But they lack any practical hands on field experience. If they had field experience not just theory they would be better served as would the people they work for.

Me and my brick crew laid 9,000 brick Saturday. Am I still a worthless engineer with no real world knowledge and no work ethic since I work for the government??

I have found that the best engineers are rather nerdy and not arrogant, they are a different breed, helps too when they have some real world experience rather than thinking they're special cause they just got a degree..
GOOD engineers are rare...most can get by with a little time, and some should be dishing fries at mcdonalds...

Hey you might get lucky and have it awarded to a minority owned and woman owned business that gets their first govt contract! They are always a joy to work with. Don't worry, I am sure your contracting office will take care of you.

Its sort of the human condition. In the old days, people who couldn't figure it out didn't survive, neither did societies with dumb leaders. Now there are "backstops" because everyone gets a participation trophy.

Maybe some sot of combo cage match and brain twister are in order and see who or what society emerges in most cases. It it out in elected DC and move outward from there.