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Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? #1108377
01/08/09 10:47 PM
01/08/09 10:47 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Ok guys...no fouling this one up. How about an intelligent conversation about lures and baits...

I think baits are often overused and unecessary for fox...coyotes I cannot say. I am guessing if its cold enough, lure and bit would be a good idea for yotes.

Lure makers, can one get away with just a good lure down the hole in the cold...or do we need more?

I am also partial to the idea that when its cold...the breed is on and thats a plus for lures...

GO! cool

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: Nightwish] #1108464
01/08/09 11:10 PM
01/08/09 11:10 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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I use only lure at sets, never have used any bait in addition to the lure in nearly 30 years. I've trapped with just bait, trapped with just lure and trapped with bait and lure in combination. I can't speak for all lures as I don't know thier formulation but with Lenon lures no bait is needed in addition to the lure to make it more effective. The only reason I ever used chunk baits was when trapping the hot Summer months for bounty as ants, grasshoppers and locusts would eat up a gob of lure much quicker than a cube of bait. I use lures appropriately for the type of set being made. At hole sets I use a food based lure with gland, passion and curiosity ingredients added as the idea of a hole set is to fool the animal into thinking something edible was buried there. At scent post, flat sets and blind scent sets or any set without a hole I use a urine/gland/passion/curiosity lure with no food/hunger element in the formulation. Although they always work for the most part at any type set, a food lure would not be natural smeared on a scent post for example and a urine gland would not be complete for a hole set without the food element included. With all due respect to some of the premiere lure makers, this idea that every set needs a lure and a bait is an idea hoisted off on trappers for years by by the late E. J. Dailey and O. L. Butcher. That idea was probably wise considering the types of lures they formulated for the most part which were urine gland lures with no other callings added in the formulation. My Dad developed lures for his own long bounty lines for convenience, no sloppy jugs of bait to haul around potentially contaminating his traps and equipment, just a nice neat paste lure to apply to a set with no drip or slop. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: Asa Lenon] #1108611
01/08/09 11:45 PM
01/08/09 11:45 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Very interesting. My thinking is that with the right set, a good lure or urine can trigger them to either dig or simply try to inestigate...which can only yieled a connection.

Sheep wool or a grass wad down the hole can act as an attractor...when lure is also used. People think I'm crzy but I use one ply of unscented toilet paper jammed down the hole...they have to get that out...and its all over.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: Nightwish] #1108617
01/08/09 11:49 PM
01/08/09 11:49 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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this year i only used lure till over half way thru than used some Bait that Bill Morgan gave me and did very well. i have never used lure and bait together. I always use Bills Pro Squeeze on my sets. Past years i used Cheese curls in my holes with pee and gland all season. The year i did that i caught 36 in like 2 weeks with 18 traps. So its not conclusive info but it is some info. I think The urine aand smell had alot to do with those 36 fox plus the cheesy smell in teh hole.


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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: lennitrapper] #1108626
01/08/09 11:53 PM
01/08/09 11:53 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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BTW before anyone says anything. I am not an expert just a kid who likes to trap fox.


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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: lennitrapper] #1108634
01/08/09 11:55 PM
01/08/09 11:55 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Len, what's Bills pro-squeeze smell like?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: Nightwish] #1108645
01/08/09 11:57 PM
01/08/09 11:57 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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I dont know exactly. it smells alot like pee but something is added to change it slightly. I know one part of the process but i am sworn to secrecy(sp?)


red fox trapper wannabe.

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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: lennitrapper] #1108712
01/09/09 12:16 AM
01/09/09 12:16 AM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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My jub of bladder peee is still near 1 gal. I take out about 1 pint every 2-3 days...and replace it with fresh bladder pee right away. Nothing like the adult fox urine right from the source...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: Nightwish] #1108817
01/09/09 12:57 AM
01/09/09 12:57 AM
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cndgmn Offline
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An extra step,thats what it usually all comes down to.How a person gets a canine to make an extra step.

Sometimes I'm on the trapline and have a Shakesperian moment--hark what light through yonder window breaks!

An excellent lure is good,an excellent bait is good.If you have the right combination it can't be beat and you will get the maximum number of steps out of any canine willing to commit.

This being said,I use mainly just lure for practical reasons but know otherwise.




Last edited by cndgmn; 01/09/09 12:59 AM. Reason: not self proclaimed expert
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: cndgmn] #1108831
01/09/09 01:00 AM
01/09/09 01:00 AM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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i only want the canine to take one step, normally thats it. i can count the number of misses from mis steps on my fingers from this year.


red fox trapper wannabe.

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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: lennitrapper] #1108876
01/09/09 01:15 AM
01/09/09 01:15 AM
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cndgmn Offline
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Lenni,you're a much luckier man than me.I hope you're doing some snow trapping and not relying on prints in the dirt.

Last edited by cndgmn; 01/09/09 01:15 AM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bait??? [Re: cndgmn] #1108887
01/09/09 01:18 AM
01/09/09 01:18 AM
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south east pa
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i use all peat and every set is smooth as a babys behind when i am done. if i fox steps on that pattern i know. when i said one step i ment one step on my pattern, i want his first as his last, one step to sniff and BAM.

on a side note to Bill, John the bait he gave me was a ground up meat based bait. i had one fox actualy digging while in the trap. i slowly approched the fox and saw him digging with his un caught front foot at what was the dirt hole.


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Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1109449
01/09/09 09:32 AM
01/09/09 09:32 AM
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I feel anymore than 1 type of lure or bait at a set is a waist of money. I use lure only, dip a twig or weed in, throw in hole making sure the lure is as far back in the hole as I can get it and beat feet. No need for a splash of urine, a dribble of gland lure, a hunk of bait and a grass plug fouling up a dirt hole.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1109495
01/09/09 10:04 AM
01/09/09 10:04 AM
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Northern Indiana
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I have used just lure for the past 20+ years for all my canine trapping. And over the years I have tried many different makers to come up with what I now use as my go to lures. The only time I use bait is at water sets for the coon or prebaiting sets before season.Trapping is a game where you need to be constantly looking to throw a curve at them. This next season I'm looking to try out a couple of baits that I see other have good success with such as Hiawatha Valley and Powder River. Never stop learning and never stop looking. And good luck trapping.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: wileytrapper] #1109515
01/09/09 10:21 AM
01/09/09 10:21 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Mike367 wrote...I feel anymore than 1 type of lure or bait at a set is a waist of money. I use lure only, dip a twig or weed in, throw in hole making sure the lure is as far back in the hole as I can get it and beat feet. No need for a splash of urine, a dribble of gland lure, a hunk of bait and a grass plug fouling up a dirt hole.

You took the words right out of my thoughts Mike!
Sometimes if a set hasn't produced in some time or after a significant rain fall I will give set backing a squirt of urine to refreshen the set. I use a good pump bottle so I can stand back and off to the side of a set a few feet so I don't have to track right up to the set. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109660
01/09/09 12:03 PM
01/09/09 12:03 PM
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cndgmn Offline
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Quote:
i use all peat and every set is smooth as a babys behind when i am done. if i fox steps on that pattern i know. when i said one step i ment one step on my pattern, i want his first as his last, one step to sniff and BAM.


Me too,unfortunately its not a perferct world and the animals don't always cooperate.I mentioned snow because its not just the misses in the pattern that matter,sometimes it can take something extra to get them to step on the pattern.It also doesn't matter where you bed your trap you WILL have misses regardless of where you place it.I've set traps center-tight,offsetright-right back a little center,back a little offset,etc etc,etc.In all of these scenarios I had misses.Its something that experience teaches and sometimes experience is self evident.

Anyone that doubts the effectiveness of a good bait in certain situations needs to experiment a little more.If you've got canines that are being standoffish or passing by sets get yourself a roadkilled feral cat,chunk it up,taint it for a couple days,then stuff that down your hole.It can be odd how areas that were "trapped out" suddenly come to life.

Then theres the location aspect to the whole canine trapping thing.I've worked on telephone poles from Se Pa down into Maryland.I recall driving back to the motel one evening and I saw a man walking out his long driveway with a pair of foxes hunting in the fields on both sides of him.I also saw numerous other fox darting about.This leads me to believe the area is literally crawling with fox and 100-600 fox from that area doesn't make much of an impression on me.The same goes for coyote or what have you,in some locations its easy to rack up numbers of any given animal.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1109730
01/09/09 12:45 PM
01/09/09 12:45 PM
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nyfox Offline
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We have found that lures are all you really need to trap fox and urine is helpful ,BUT have found that coyotes didnt work the sets as much untill we started to use bait ,so with that said we started to use it on some sets with bait in the hole and fox gland lure around the lip or in the hole and found that it started to catch both fox and coyote consistantly.Their is no wrong or right way ,it is what works .

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1109734
01/09/09 12:49 PM
01/09/09 12:49 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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cndgmn wrote...Anyone that doubts the effectiveness of a good bait in certain situations needs to experiment a little more

With all due respect, I trapped with and without bait and used chunk bait for 25 years during the bounty trapping era and I could never see one increase or decrease in set acceptance or avoidance whether or not the bait was used in addition to one of my lures. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109749
01/09/09 01:01 PM
01/09/09 01:01 PM
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ASA ,what are your thoughts with what i mentioned above ?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109750
01/09/09 01:01 PM
01/09/09 01:01 PM
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Ace,I'm sorry but I've got to respectfully disagree with you on this one.I have no doubt you've learned from experience as have I.To be fair you've probably tried several more lures(experimental or otherwise)than me.At this point in the game I'm sticking with my beliefs until proven otherwise.I have never used your lures and may have to put in an order for next year.You know,leave no stone unturned.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1109760
01/09/09 01:05 PM
01/09/09 01:05 PM
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Kansas,32,6-1,220,B/B NS
CharlesKS Offline
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As for bait vs lure, ive yet to find a lure, that, when sets are frozen down, the hole place is dug out like a bomb hit it.

In my experiance, i like to use lures in sets where i control there foot movements (like a walk through) and use bait in open no blocking at all dirtholes.

The commercial baits made now, have the same if not more ingrediants in them than lures do. Its in my opinion, the bait allures to the coyote as an actuall parcel to eat, not just a odd smell in a hole on a stick (not that they know what a stick is)

if im using a t-bone, it gets a lure. if its a dirthole, it gets bait.

i wouldnt dare go out and set up for coyotes without bobcat meat based bait.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: CharlesKS] #1109778
01/09/09 01:14 PM
01/09/09 01:14 PM
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cndgmn Offline
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Well said Charles...you surprise me sometimes.Thats what I'm saying.There is no convincing me a canine can't tell the turkey from the drippings.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1109787
01/09/09 01:17 PM
01/09/09 01:17 PM
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Kansas,32,6-1,220,B/B NS
CharlesKS Offline
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Ive dabbled with lures in a hole, and yes, caught coyotes that way.

however, ive seen far to many times, when theres just one track in the pattern, a one step and sniff and move on, IF the set isnt constructed as a walkthrough.

foot guiding is not my style, so, on dirtholes, using bait, i feel i get the necesasary foot movement from the bait as they are digging and scratching, to go ahead and make the catch.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: CharlesKS] #1109827
01/09/09 01:31 PM
01/09/09 01:31 PM
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western oregon
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trap runner Offline
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i am curious to know if having an abundance of natural easy food in an area would make bait less or more effective? i also am curious if the number of yotes in an area can be a factor when using a lure?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109838
01/09/09 01:34 PM
01/09/09 01:34 PM
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western oregon
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trap runner Offline
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let us hear it buzzard!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109852
01/09/09 01:39 PM
01/09/09 01:39 PM
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B61-12 vicinity, MO
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TreedaBlackdog Offline
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stackem up (coons with bait) and remake....around here coons are worth more then yotes

I do tend to agree with Charles, especially when our weather consistently gets below freezing - a chunk or spoon of bait in a hole tends to get the coyotes to stay longer - foxes, no idea - we dont have enough

Last edited by TreedaBlackdog; 01/09/09 01:42 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109853
01/09/09 01:40 PM
01/09/09 01:40 PM
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Kansas,32,6-1,220,B/B NS
CharlesKS Offline
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Originally Posted By: kiotee
Originally Posted By: CharlesKS
Ive dabbled with lures in a hole, and yes, caught coyotes that way.

however, ive seen far to many times, when theres just one track in the pattern, a one step and sniff and move on, IF the set isnt constructed as a walkthrough.

foot guiding is not my style, so, on dirtholes, using bait, i feel i get the necesasary foot movement from the bait as they are digging and scratching, to go ahead and make the catch.


What about trapping areas that are loaded with coon when you are using bait in the hole?..


coon are worth money to.

aint there aint a LURE out there that will NOT catch a coon anyway.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: TreedaBlackdog] #1109857
01/09/09 01:40 PM
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nyfox Offline
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We do like buzz

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109875
01/09/09 01:49 PM
01/09/09 01:49 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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NYfox asked...ASA ,what are your thoughts with what i mentioned above ?

If you go back up near the top of this thread you'll note that I stated that I can't speak for all lure brands as I don't know what is in thier formulations.
I note that the lure you used was a gland lure at a dirthole set. A dirthole set would not be a complete lure with just gland lure and no food/hunger element on down in the hole. A good call lure like Super All Call or Super Range All Call should already have a food/hunger element in the formulation so when a gob on a stick is at the bottom of the hole the animal will not only be curuious but think something to eat has been buried there by some other animal species and dig for it. Gland lures in my opinion are better served at scent post sets, flat sets, blind scent sets or any set where there is no hole to represent something edible buried there. So, I can only conclude that those who have better results using bait than lure aren't using an appropriately formulated lure for usage at hole sets. For example, I would never use one of my Nature's Call urine/gland/passion/curiosity formulated lures at a dirt hole set withou adding a food bait down the hole. With the Super All call and Super Range All Call lures that food element is already added to the formulation. Don't get me wrong, I've caught scores of fox, coyote and bobcat using just Nature's Call at a hole set for experimentation but as has been stated by others it didn't always offer a reason for the canine to tear into the hole to get the food out of the bottom. As I said, Nature's Call is something I use a lot of but reserve it for sets where there is no hole. Asa
PS- I think this could be a regional thing too, depending upon the animal population vs the available food supply. Around my area, Upper Michigan, the winters are many times severe but coyotes, fox and bobcats reside in the cedar swamps along with an abundant food supply of rabbits, ruffed grouse, starving weak deer and deer that died of starvation. For the most part they could care less about a chunk of bait at a set unless it offered some other attraction, curiosity, passion, territorial, gland, etc. I have the best results in my region using Nature's Call lures at post sets during the deep snow winter months, its the time of year when Nature's Call's passion ingredients shine and animals are thinking territories more so than eating when thier stomachs are always full and they always respond.

Last edited by Asa Lenon; 01/09/09 01:57 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: nyfox] #1109883
01/09/09 01:54 PM
01/09/09 01:54 PM
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Putnam Co, WV
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Man I like these posts; wealth of info!!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109895
01/09/09 02:02 PM
01/09/09 02:02 PM
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minnesota
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Buzzy, have you kept records on which set takes more animals?


"They that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" Ben Franklin talking about guns
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: goldy] #1109902
01/09/09 02:07 PM
01/09/09 02:07 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Buzzard wrote...all locations have two sets bout 10 to 20 feet apart.......all of them, no matter what.
Lefthand set gets beaver meat bait soaked in Dobbins bait solution only........no urine or lure
Ritehand set gets a gland lure and urine.......no bait
All the bases are covered that way and there are NO what ifs

Well Buzz, are you going to leave us hanging on which sets generally produce the best results when compared side by side like that????? C'mon now Buzz! Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109911
01/09/09 02:11 PM
01/09/09 02:11 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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I rarely use bait and I think that helps cut down on possums and skunks.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1109915
01/09/09 02:14 PM
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I have not seen that using a gland lure or any other lure has cut down on the catch of possum or skunk.If they are there you will catch them imo.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109930
01/09/09 02:17 PM
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Hence the reason to get out there and experiment and find out what works in your area

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1109940
01/09/09 02:21 PM
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Millville, Pennsylvania
Fairchild #17 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
Buzzard wrote...all locations have two sets bout 10 to 20 feet apart.......all of them, no matter what......

Asa, just wondering....do you know how to use the "quote" feature to answer someone's specific question. I have noticed that you do alot of extra re-typing rather than using this tool. Just trying to help you out as you do me.


Nowadays it just don't pay to be a good 'ol boy.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: nyfox] #1109942
01/09/09 02:22 PM
01/09/09 02:22 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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You never know, NYfox. How do you know you wouldn't have caught twice as many non-targets if you'd been using bait?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1109948
01/09/09 02:24 PM
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N. Dakota
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As ASA wrote, it might be a regional thing, and a time of year thing.
Way too many variables to make a hard fast statement about lures, baits, and coyotes, or even fox or bobcats.

Over the many miles, and years, I have learned you never say never or always, as those two words just do not apply to trapping over any period of time or miles.

So what do I do and use? Sometimes everything, and now and again, nothing, just make a set in trails. Experiment in your area with your lures and baits, and see what works for YOU, then remember it may not be right for someone else making sets different on different kinds of location or under different weather or other extreme conditions.

One thing about trapping---the door is always open to learn something new, different, and more!


Proud to be a trapper and supporter of trapping organizations
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Slim Pedersen] #1109964
01/09/09 02:31 PM
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nyfox Offline
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How do i know ?We have used both and the numbers of non targets have not changed ,skunks and possum are curious and will investigate a gland ,call,ect lure if they smell it as much as a bait and you will catch them ,ask any fox trapper who uses lure and i guarentee they catch loads of possum and skunks .They are scavengers looking for any kind of food and even a smell of fox anals will bring them in

Last edited by nyfox; 01/09/09 02:37 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1109984
01/09/09 02:41 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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beachcomber13 Offline
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I AM a fox trapper. I'm not saying that possums and skunks won't get caught on lure but I really do believe that my count is lower on them when I don't use bait..or maybe there are just less around these days?

Nice picture, Buzzard. I happen to like eating crow.lol

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Fairchild #17] #1109993
01/09/09 02:46 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Number17 asked...
Asa, just wondering....do you know how to use the "quote" feature to answer someone's specific question. I have noticed that you do alot of extra re-typing rather than using this tool. Just trying to help you out as you do me.

I don't re-type anything, just use the right click copy and paste method but no, I don't know how to use the quote feature. Thanks for asking, I'm interested! Asa

Buzzard:
Thanks for the reply and you bring up a GOOD point. Once one adds Dobbin's solution to some meat cubes or makes a batch of the Nelson formula baits for examples that are so widly used then it is no longer a BAIT but is now a LURE. A true bait would be simply a chunk of meat, fish or fruit with no other ingredients added. I should have differentiated that in my earlier postings. In effect, my whole line of Super All Call and Super Range All Call lures are actually combination bait/lures, that is why no additional bait makes them any more effective. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1110363
01/09/09 05:12 PM
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Slim,You've got a real way with words.You also write some of the wisest statements I've ever read.Can I call you Ol'Signature A Minute??

Buzz,nice double.Its interesting to know what a half crazy person does,the results are quite interesting.I may have to try my own experiments a little further next year,its winding down quickly this year.

Ace,as always you give plenty of food for thought.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1110693
01/09/09 07:50 PM
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NE Kansas
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trapfurfun Offline
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TTT


In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks--John Muir
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: trapfurfun] #1110805
01/09/09 08:42 PM
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Mike367 Offline
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If the spoonful of bait or chunk of beaver meat is hidden in a dirthole how does the critter know what he is getting until he actually digs it out? And by that time if the trap hasnt fired its not gonna. Most canines are caught out of curiosity, very few are hungry. I have tried house cat meat and dont care for the fuss and mess. My favorite go to fox lures are Fox Hollow's Voo Doo and Blackie's Blend TKO. Bait solutions are nothing more than lures. Not saying other methods dont work, just what works for me. Mike

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1110837
01/09/09 08:51 PM
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bic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mike367
If the spoonful of bait or chunk of beaver meat is hidden in a dirthole how does the critter know what he is getting until he actually digs it out?


Actually, I think the K-9's nose is keen enough that it can tell what smell is coming from that hole before he ever gets it in his mouth.
I mean...If you got your beaver chunk meat in an empty CLEAN peanut butter jar. That K=9 KNOWS that in this hole is Beaver meat, Peanut butter, That the Peanut butter is JIFFY and that it was Jiffy Crunchy not Creamy!
JMO


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bic] #1110856
01/09/09 08:59 PM
01/09/09 08:59 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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University experiments concluded that if there is many ingredients in a lure than a canine and many other animals are capable of standing back and separating and analyzing each individual odor without even having to come close. No wonder that perhaps the number one cause of set avoidance, walk-bys, failure to work the set, etc may be overusage of attractors. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1110949
01/09/09 09:35 PM
01/09/09 09:35 PM
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Dunnville, Kentucky
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KyCountry Offline
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so actually, fox pee isn't a cover scent?? If the study is right, the K9s smell the pee and the human scent?

Also something I have noticed this year, Some give advice on using a skunk type lure up high and down wind from the set with a bait/lure in the hole. Most of the time I use this is with a dirt hole set, and on every miss I have had, the fox after a short visit would go to the other lure, marking the area most of the time. If I use the lure in the hole, it's a fox still at the hole waiting for me.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: KyCountry] #1110998
01/09/09 09:46 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Good point KYCountry, I don't personally believe in or use attractors, including urine, any place except right at the set placed where the animal has to pass over the trap to get at them. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: KyCountry] #1111013
01/09/09 09:48 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Man, this thread has done pretty well...

I just use lure at my fox sets...two, one at each set...6-8 feet apart. I will use bait to HOLD THEM there if/when it gets real cold. My bait of choice?

JW Crawford's bacon grease from the fry pan

If using dirtholes, I think it will only take ONE step and even bladder peee can trigger that. One step on the pattern...and why?

So, the fox can stick his head in the hole...like they LOVE to do.

Imagine if the baldder pee you used had enough glycerine in it to keep the hole from freezing? That hole would then act like a chimney...carryng the odors out.

Ever see a cartoon with the mad scientist perculating some concoction and the steam/odor/vapors are coming out and floating on the floor?

Thats what a dirt hole does...

Good posts guys..and thanks to Mr. Buzzard for not defiling this thread. I owe you a beer...LOL...

Last edited by Nightwish; 01/09/09 09:49 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1111043
01/09/09 09:55 PM
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bic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
Good point KYCountry, I don't personally believe in or use attractors, including urine, any place except right at the set placed where the animal has to pass over the trap to get at them. Asa

Asa, I also occasionally place Skunk essence "up and behind" my sets. I believe it helps get a "passer by's" attention in cold or windy weather. The reason I don't use it at the hole is, I have noticed, In my area..That I get more Grinners if the skunk is in the hole. Does that make any sense?


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1111063
01/09/09 09:59 PM
01/09/09 09:59 PM
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NY
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Mike367 Offline
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I should probably re-word my last post. What I meant was the canine cant tell the difference between what is lure and what is bait. My opinion is the best attractor for canines is a gland based, food/curiosity type lure. And to answer Buzzies insult, Im no Brownie but can hold my own. Mike

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1111157
01/09/09 10:24 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Yes bic, that makes sense and using plain skunk musk as the call probably doesn't distract from the set like a multi-ingredient call lure may do.

Mike wrote...My opinion is the best attractor for canines is a gland based, food/curiosity type lure.

I agree Mike, its all it takes to do the job. Asa

Last edited by Asa Lenon; 01/09/09 10:25 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1111211
01/09/09 10:37 PM
01/09/09 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted By: Nightwish
Man, this thread has done pretty well...

I just use lure at my fox sets...two, one at each set...6-8 feet apart. I will use bait to HOLD THEM there if/when it gets real cold. My bait of choice?

JW Crawford's bacon grease from the fry pan

If using dirtholes, I think it will only take ONE step and even bladder peee can trigger that. One step on the pattern...and why?

So, the fox can stick his head in the hole...like they LOVE to do.

Imagine if the baldder pee you used had enough glycerine in it to keep the hole from freezing? That hole would then act like a chimney...carryng the odors out.

Ever see a cartoon with the mad scientist perculating some concoction and the steam/odor/vapors are coming out and floating on the floor?

Thats what a dirt hole does...

Good posts guys..and thanks to Mr. Buzzard for not defiling this thread. I owe you a beer...LOL...

How do you know they stick their whole head in the hole?,did you sit at a set and watch them?,oh ya,thats right,you saw it on a vidio I posted.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1111248
01/09/09 10:47 PM
01/09/09 10:47 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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No Phil..I knew a guy who had 2 fox in an enclosure. They were his pets. He did extensive testing on lures and dirtholes with them...traps and all. At least 50% of the time they stuck their whole head in the hole when investigating. There's other things they did that i cant say...

Every magician has his secrets...

Buzzy, i think I like you....Rings of Saturn is one of my screen names...

Phil, your thoughts on baits, lures and urines?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1111285
01/09/09 10:55 PM
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bic Offline
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Seriously..Hey Phil, I'm sure you have something to offer to this thread. I know you wouldn't give up too much info, but how about a morsel or two?


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bic] #1111298
01/09/09 10:59 PM
01/09/09 10:59 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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here is where i differ greatly from you guys. I have a few lures that i got ( John they are from bill, only me and him have these two) And i wont use these lure above 40 degrees. once it gets around freezin i break these lures out. However i do put a diffrent smell in each hole an dmy double sets are normally no more than 10 feet away


red fox trapper wannabe.

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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1111307
01/09/09 11:02 PM
01/09/09 11:02 PM
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East TN.
High Noon Offline
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If you trap long enough I think that you will find what works for you. It can be very different than what someone else has used for success.

I trapped in the northern states for many years and used bait or lure down a hole and a dab of skunk nearby as a call. Any critter with a nose may smell the skunk and then find it's way to the hole. Using skunk essence in the hole didn't mean I was going to catch more nontarget animals. Your going to get them! The reason behind my reasoning was that the skunk essence out of the hole seemed to carry in the air currents farther than when it was down the hole. When I made lures and baits back then I never put skunk essence in the formula.

I now make many of my lures with skunk essence in them because most trappers don't want to carry a bottle of skunk with them. I do still carry a bottle of skunk essence with me even if I have lures with skunk in them. I trap for fun now and don't trap hard like I used to, as I don't have time anymore.

I will make sets that are out of the way and not where placement of sets should be. When doing this type of trapping you better have a good call agent that might bring them off the beaten path and that's also why I carry a bottle of skunk essence with me.
When I really want to be sure I'm gonna have the best chance to catch somthing I'll trap location. Animals are like people, some like stuff that smells alot and the next animal that smells the same scent might back off and avoid the set.

There are times when lures and baits work better in one area than in another area. I can only try to get you to test different ways of using scents and lures and find out what works best for you. At the same time never quit testing to see if something else might work better for you. After awhile you'll have a pretty good idea of what works for you when you really want to hammer the fur. I always put a few sets out for testing and put other sets out that I knew had the best chance to catch my target animal.

Heck, I forgot what the question was now! LOL

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1111312
01/09/09 11:04 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nightwish
At least 50% of the time they stuck their whole head in the hole when investigating.
How big yall makin your holes? mine are only the diam. of a quarter or half dollar


red fox trapper wannabe.

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Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1111349
01/09/09 11:14 PM
01/09/09 11:14 PM
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High Noon Offline
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Originally Posted By: lennitrapper
Originally Posted By: Nightwish
At least 50% of the time they stuck their whole head in the hole when investigating.
How big yall makin your holes? mine are only the diam. of a quarter or half dollar


You must have bee watching to many Tom Miranda videos! LOL
Dirt holes can be any size, but I like mine big enough to look like a critter bigger than a mouse lives in it. I'd say that as many traps as phil runs he doesn't have time to make big holes. That fox is gonna put his nose in the hole no matter how big it is. A smaller hole just means more diggin for the fox! LOL

Last edited by High Noon; 01/09/09 11:38 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1111364
01/09/09 11:24 PM
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i have never seen a Mirranda movie. Thats just how i make my sets. i used to dig holes when i ran 12 traps in 4 hours but this season i ran an ave of 25 in 2-3 hours so it was Pop&Go i dont really see how the huge hole will affect the outcome that much/ seems like a waste of a minute or 2 multiplied 30 times your lookin at an hour saved

Last edited by lennitrapper; 01/09/09 11:24 PM.

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Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Fairchild #17] #1111402
01/09/09 11:36 PM
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kanawha wv 35years
trapper30 Offline
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kanawha wv 35years
good replys lots of info


catches this season 21 coon 32 possums 2 red 2 gray 16 coyotes 1 bobcat
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1111408
01/09/09 11:37 PM
01/09/09 11:37 PM
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East TN.
High Noon Offline
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I have used both big and little holes and both work well. I used to dig big holes in the summer time so I'd be ready to trap in the fall. I didn't even know you could use little holes. LMAO

I stiil make some bigger holes just to pass the time I guess. Most of the time I do it in a bank or something as the bigger hole can bee seen better than a small hole. Kinda like putting something white in a cage trap or hanging something like a wing over a set, EYE CANDY!

When I trapped hard I didn't use many big holes most were small. But then I didn't use many holes when I trapped hard. Most of the time I used post and blind sets as they were pretty fast also.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1111466
01/09/09 11:56 PM
01/09/09 11:56 PM
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Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
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One thing that I havent noticed being mentioned in this thread is animal pop. density. The size of the population in the area also has some influence on what combinations if any work consistantly. In lower populations food availability is normally higher. In those cases I have found curiosity type ayttractors to be more effective. In high pop. areas food type baits work better. Climate also will dictate to some degree what is effective. here in the north I do better with a bait/lure combo. When I trapped the south however i did much better with just lure and no bait. There is an infinate number of variables that will dictate what works better and when with canines. Just my two cents and thats probanbly all its worth.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Dave Plueger] #1111582
01/10/09 12:49 AM
01/10/09 12:49 AM
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High Noon Offline
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Your Right Dave, I just ran out of running my big mouth, and pooped out on typing anything more. I trapped in the north and played in the snow and cold for near 30 years. Good populations of all types of critters. Now been trapping in the south and it's very different. Not as many critters in the area I trap and the RAIN RAIN RAIN is much different than what I was used to up there. Never used peat moss up north, once it got cold it stayed that way most of the time and I'd just grind up that hard dirt and use some salt at times. Now I've had to learn to play with red clay cement! And I use alot of peat now. LOL

Thanks for your input Dave, that is very important info you just gave.


Last edited by High Noon; 01/10/09 12:50 AM. Reason: can't spell
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1111654
01/10/09 01:39 AM
01/10/09 01:39 AM
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Southern Utah
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Asa, So if by adding a bait solution to your meat creates a lure instead of a bait. (wow that was a mouth full!) Then how many people out there are using a true bait? If this is the case I would completely agree that both are not needed. If using the "bait" which actually has lure traits or additives, then all of your bases are covered with one product be that whatever flavor it is. Now if you are talking about using a lure only, then you can taylor it to whatever your desired outcome may be. You can with a lure play an animals instincts without using hunger as a compelling aspect of attraction. However with a food based Lure ie. "Bait" you will always be appealing to the target animals stomach because of its food based nature? So why would one not always use "bait" and get the best of both? Maybe I overcomplicated this whole discussion. Just curious. As for me, I have caught all of my animals save one this season on Kippersnacks down the hole and a shot of Red Fox urine on the backing. The one exception I caught on a blind set where I had previously caught another and didn't have time to remake the entire set. So I through out a trap and let the odors generated from the first act as the attractant. Wow it was rank. Thanks.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Striker] #1111729
01/10/09 04:42 AM
01/10/09 04:42 AM

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Here is a tidbit of a "STUDY" I done.Pulled up to a spot JWC,and I was trapping,and there was JWC at my set pointing at a big dirt clod in the jaws of my trap stating he did not do it.Well ,I remade the set,and gave it a good shot of "bladderpee",all the while JWC was doing a "STUDY" of me.

Well,you guessed it,next morning a fox in my set..
Next day JWC was at Rodgers Hides singing the praises of bladder pee.I think that study made it into his latest tape..

Phil Brown.....sighning out.....traps to study.....then furauction.....Reading PA.....

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1111730
01/10/09 04:52 AM
01/10/09 04:52 AM
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huntinglonewolf Offline
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I make my own bait with my own soulution mixed in it and it works really great. With the soulution you have alot of different smells comming out of the bait. Most of the time the bait is all I use but sometimes will add a castor based lure also.


"Oh make no mistake, itís not revenge I'm afteróItís a reckoning":

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: huntinglonewolf] #1111896
01/10/09 09:35 AM
01/10/09 09:35 AM
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cndgmn Offline
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Phil,I hope you charged for lessons.You're gonna have to get a trademark to keep from getting ripped off.

I didn't want to say anything but I saw some wierd stuff when I was out your way on business a few weeks back.In the back of a field I saw a blue minivan,as I recall it had a bumper sticker that said Amish Rule!! Anyhow,it looked like some guy was staking out a goat on a lead and setting up trail cameras.I won't go into what all happened with the goat,this being a family site and all.I just found it repulsive and very,very odd.My best guess is that they were some dimwit trying to film a chucabra.I guess goats attract them better if they're all sweaty and worn out.....hmmm,go figure.

Last edited by cndgmn; 01/10/09 09:43 AM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Striker] #1111935
01/10/09 10:03 AM
01/10/09 10:03 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Striker
Asa, So if by adding a bait solution to your meat creates a lure instead of a bait. (wow that was a mouth full!) Then how many people out there are using a true bait? If this is the case I would completely agree that both are not needed. If using the "bait" which actually has lure traits or additives, then all of your bases are covered with one product be that whatever flavor it is. Now if you are talking about using a lure only, then you can taylor it to whatever your desired outcome may be. You can with a lure play an animals instincts without using hunger as a compelling aspect of attraction. However with a food based Lure ie. "Bait" you will always be appealing to the target animals stomach because of its food based nature? So why would one not always use "bait" and get the best of both? Maybe I overcomplicated this whole discussion. Just curious. As for me, I have caught all of my animals save one this season on Kippersnacks down the hole and a shot of Red Fox urine on the backing. The one exception I caught on a blind set where I had previously caught another and didn't have time to remake the entire set. So I through out a trap and let the odors generated from the first act as the attractant. Wow it was rank. Thanks.


Think of this way. Let us say that a lure formula calls for 4 ozs of castor, 6 ozs of muskrat musk, 6 ozs of coyote glands, 1 oz asafoedita, 1 oz tonquin, 1 oz civet musk and 8 ozs coyote urine. One uses this at a hole set along with a 1" cube of bobcat meat down the hole. Why would it be any different if one included the bobcat meat, say 8 ozs of ground meat into the lure formula to begin with and ended up with a nice neat thick pasty lure to carry around in small bottles. Why would one want to apply lure and also carry with them big jugs of juicy stinky bait chunks dripping and slopping down the side of the jar contaminating one's traps, sets and equipment. That is why my Dad originally developed lures that were complete in themselves with a food/hunger element added along with territorial ingredients so there would be no need of extra bottles of urine to carry either, just one small bottle of lure to quickly, conveniently and cleanly apply to a set. My Dad named these lures "ALL CALL" because they were formulated to appeal to ALL KNOWN CALLS of the animal they were formulated for; hunger, curiosity, passion, nature, territorial, etc. Asa
PS- The above formula off the top of my mind would be a good one I'm sure BUT it is not the formula for any Lenon lure.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1111979
01/10/09 10:27 AM
01/10/09 10:27 AM
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Southern Utah
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Striker Offline
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Thanks Asa. I agree with you completely. One bottle. I have even had problems with urines in a small spray bottle contaminating the outside and therefore your hands/gloves. Your dad was onto something with the thickness also. Keep it clean and simple. I like the thought of all in one.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Striker] #1112409
01/10/09 01:53 PM
01/10/09 01:53 PM
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Posts: 1,104
NY
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Mike367 Offline
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Why do all good post on here turn into Phil vs Nightwish ? They are both good trappers with tons of time and tons of fox to trap. Bottom line on the lure and bait issue is whatever makes ya feel good. Mr. Lenon's advice should be followed as his father was a Master. Sure a fox can smell a skunk a mile away but when he smells a BLEND of gland/food/curiosity his nose needs to touch the source of the odor to properly decode it. So when making trench sets with a standard trowel the hole is large enough for the fox to poke his nose in, he will have to step down to get in it. When using small dirt holes the fox needs first dig out the hole in order to get his nose on it. Thats why using the trench set with one lure as far back in the hole as possible is so deadly. In areas were Phil and Nightwish trap there are so many foxes that the curiosity aspects of a lure is lost and its all about getting the food first so in those areas you could probably catch foxes on pop tarts. Mike

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1112562
01/10/09 02:40 PM
01/10/09 02:40 PM
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Southern Utah
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Striker Offline
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Poptarts huh? Hmmmm I think you're onto something there. I can feed myself and the foxes at the same time. LMAO

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1112659
01/10/09 03:25 PM
01/10/09 03:25 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Good post Mike! I never make dirtholes more than 3" or so in diameter and at least 10" deep so a fox or coyote will have to make at least a few digs to get the scent stick up and out of the hole. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1112742
01/10/09 03:59 PM
01/10/09 03:59 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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God posts here guys...I have to skin so i'll be back on this one.

As for Phil and his idea that i "studied" his sets...of course, I did...I study all trappers sets and techniques. I knew about bladder pee LONG ago...and used it long ago...only now I use it more. Not from copying Phil...but from learing from others.

Thanks guys for this good info...good posts!!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1112832
01/10/09 04:31 PM
01/10/09 04:31 PM
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Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
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Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline
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Very informative posts all!
this needs to be in the archives when it's run it's course.
keep it up!
thank you all.
bob


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1112857
01/10/09 04:41 PM
01/10/09 04:41 PM
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Posts: 3,150
kanawha wv 35years
trapper30 Offline
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trapper30  Offline
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kanawha wv 35years
hey i had a gray fox come under my tree stand and put his nose in a pop tart wrapper, last year, i normally carry pop tarts while deer hunting for snacks


catches this season 21 coon 32 possums 2 red 2 gray 16 coyotes 1 bobcat
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1112861
01/10/09 04:41 PM
01/10/09 04:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,150
kanawha wv 35years
trapper30 Offline
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trapper30  Offline
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kanawha wv 35years
hey i had a gray fox come under my tree stand and put his nose in a pop tart wrapper, last year i normally carry pop tarts while deer hunting for snacks


catches this season 21 coon 32 possums 2 red 2 gray 16 coyotes 1 bobcat
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: trapper30] #1112868
01/10/09 04:43 PM
01/10/09 04:43 PM
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Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
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Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline
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What flavor?
need to carry a few?
bob


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1112992
01/10/09 05:38 PM
01/10/09 05:38 PM
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kanawha wv 35years
trapper30 Offline
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trapper30  Offline
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kanawha wv 35years
either strawberry or smores not sure but thats what i buy, the tree stand is like a shed about 14 ft up and i kept hearing something and couldnt see it finally i looked out window and down and there he was, it was barely day light he stuck his snout in sniffed around and went on wrapper had blown out of stand a few days earlier so i guess my scent was gone


catches this season 21 coon 32 possums 2 red 2 gray 16 coyotes 1 bobcat
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1113005
01/10/09 05:42 PM
01/10/09 05:42 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Good post indeed!

I personally do not like the trap stake wiggled out hole idea...or anything close to it. if that is the way a guy wnats to make them..and catchs fur on it, then kudos to him. The only way I ever had success with that is if its reamed out to a 1-2 in hole..and then you might as well just use your trowle anyway.

Why is a bigger dirthole better?

Canines LOVE to stick their nose in stuff...and wild canines have long since have been known to stick their entire snout in a dirthole. A tiny 1/2" to 1" hole doesnt allow for that. A 2-4" hole does.

I dont think depth is a big deal on foxes...esp if the trap is set up right. One step is all it takes...

BUT...IMO, only 5-60% of the fox are caught investigating the dirthole..the rest are caught pawing at the pattern. This has been noted in several fox studies that I have in my posession.

With these two factors, we can see why the dirthole is the standard...and the best way to catch most wild k9s..and has been for decades...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113054
01/10/09 06:01 PM
01/10/09 06:01 PM
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Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline
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The mouse hole,I like to use 3 in a open pattern,makes a canine move it's feet to sniff all three holes.
Just my thoughts,I'm not big on land trapping so take it as just my take?
bob


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1113075
01/10/09 06:10 PM
01/10/09 06:10 PM
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Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
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Dave Plueger Offline
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Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
For fox I agree that the dirthole is usaully the most productive, but for coyotes it seems that a mouse hole or flat set is more productive espeacially in areas where the coyotes have been around the block a time or two and have seen their share of dirt holes. Coyotes also seem to remember not only what they see much longer than a fox but also what they smell. That is one of the reasons I like to change up odors after a few days with coyotes. never really found it neccesary for fox (red). I know nothing regarding greys.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Dave Plueger] #1113143
01/10/09 06:32 PM
01/10/09 06:32 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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beachcomber13 Offline
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I honestly can't decide wether a bigger or smaller dirthole is better. It usually just depends on the soil type. Soft soil gets a nice trowel dug hole and rocky hard soil usually gets a rebar reaming.

I wax my rebar stakes but it doesn't take long before that wax chips and a little rust develops on the stake. I wonder how much scent gets left behind in a reamed out dh.

Very good thread, Nightwish..I wouldn't waste my time arguing with a guy who may know how to trap but doesn't know how to be friendly.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113183
01/10/09 06:45 PM
01/10/09 06:45 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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One thing for sure is that a 3" or 4" dirthole offers better set visibility and eye appeal. The wind may have shifted and is blowing the lure's odor in the opposite direction than anticipated but one still has a good cahnce at making a catch through set visibility and eye appeal. I believe that I could trap up to a 50% harvest rate using flashy visible dirtholes if I didn't use any lure or odor attractor whatsoever.

Nightwish wrote... I dont think depth is a big deal on foxes...esp if the trap is set up right. One step is all it takes...

I probably catch a good 90% of fox, coyote and bobcat with thier first step into the dirt pattern. However, with that other 10% I do think a deep enough hole is important as those agile pawed little red fox can walk up along side of a set and stick thier skinny leg down into a dirthole and have that scent stick up and out of there with hardly any disturbance to the hole. I've seen it scores of times. Sometimes they just drop the scent stick and other times they run with it. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1113194
01/10/09 06:48 PM
01/10/09 06:48 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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One thing for sure is that a 3" or 4" dirthole offers better set visibility and eye appeal. The wind may have shifted and is blowing the lure's odor in the opposite direction than anticipated but one still has a good cahnce at making a catch through set visibility and eye appeal. I believe that I could trap up to a 50% harvest rate using flashy visible dirtholes if I didn't use any lure or odor attractor whatsoever.

I agre with Asa..and have often been tempted to NOT use any lure...just dog dirtholes and keep resetting. Just as an experiment. But, alas, I can't bring myself to do it...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113247
01/10/09 07:09 PM
01/10/09 07:09 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Gulliver, Michigan
Nightwish wrote...I agre with Asa..and have often been tempted to NOT use any lure...just dog dirtholes and keep resetting. Just as an experiment. But, alas, I can't bring myself to do it...

One could never harvest the same numbers without adding lure to the set. I have done limited experiments with dirtholes and no lure and that is where I got this 50% harvest rate idea. It is my opinion that those who do not utilize good set visibility and eye appeal along with a good lure are not harvesting at a maximum potential. Again in my opinion, those few extra wary coyotes one catches by using small mouse holes and blending in every set will never compensate for the number they missed by not utilizing good set visibility and eye appeal. Every dirthole set I make is flashy, a 3" or 4" hole made into a backing and constructed in sand, short grass, reindeer moss, pine needles, etc so nothing is obstructing the view of the set for a considerable distance. I like lots of sand for eye appeal and fresh dirt also has an odor and calling of its own, canine will investigate fresh digging. I believe this is one of the secrets to more successful trapping of any animal species. Generally speaking, I make sets in groupings and at least one set in a grouping of hole sets is a post set, flat set or a blind scent set using a completely different more subtle lure that is specifically formulated for such sets. This will take the occasional wary or educated coyote/fox that might be wise from previous experiences to flashy dirtholes and loud scents. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1113274
01/10/09 07:17 PM
01/10/09 07:17 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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People often think its dumb, but I leave a lot of eye appeal as well. My sets are easy to find...just look for the little dirt piles behind the sets. When i dig out the beds/holes I simple pile it behind the set, creating a backing. Its not a mile high but its enough that it cathces their eye and MINE too. When I check traps I need a reference from afar. Checking from a distance, i can see those dirtpiles.

If I think I'm off on location as well..I may dig a 3rd hole/pile and create a pile for eye appeal. This only if its not 20* and the ground is concrete...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113314
01/10/09 07:32 PM
01/10/09 07:32 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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beachcomber13 Offline
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I remember being 14 and getting my first trapping books in the mail. The one book said we should carry any extra dirt away from the set. I still can't believe I did that for quite a few years.
Nowadays I tend to incorporate that extra dirt into my sets.

Thank-you for letting me know that I'm not doing things wrong.lol

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113325
01/10/09 07:36 PM
01/10/09 07:36 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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No problem Beach...it may not be cool for Yotes..but for our dumb foxes, its no biggie...

Just look at my pics...you'll see the dirt piles right there...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113330
01/10/09 07:38 PM
01/10/09 07:38 PM
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nys
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fur trapper Offline
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nys
small dirtholes....small dirtholes for fox, bigger dirtholes for coyote

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113336
01/10/09 07:40 PM
01/10/09 07:40 PM
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cndgmn Offline
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Quote:
I dont think depth is a big deal on foxes...esp if the trap is set up right. One step is all it takes...


I'll have to go with Ace on this one.While I believe you can catch many on the initial approach you'll never catch them all.Anyone that thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves or possibly needs to learn to read sign a little better.

Quote:
BUT...IMO, only 5-60% of the fox are caught investigating the dirthole..the rest are caught pawing at the pattern. This has been noted in several fox studies that I have in my posession.


I don't know why you'd need a study in your possesion to figure this one out,but ok.I generally figure this out by the catch on the paw and the approach to the set(when visible).It also kinda goes against the one step theory,or is that now a one scratch theory??What I've found is that reds generally won't do much pawing if everthing is right unless they've had a previous bad experience.It is the greys and yotes that like to paw at things around here,especially the greys.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113337
01/10/09 07:40 PM
01/10/09 07:40 PM
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Syracuse,Utica-Rome,Madison,On...
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Bob Evans,-CWCP Offline
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keep it up guy's the more you write the smarter I get.
Ain't nothin like learnin from the masters!
Thank you
bob


Bird,live honey Bee,Unique wildlife problems SOLVED.
Serving the great state of New York

livetrappingbymatt.net
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Bob Evans,-CWCP] #1113351
01/10/09 07:43 PM
01/10/09 07:43 PM
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nys
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fur trapper Offline
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Nightwish,what kind of studies do you have ?the info from 1 video that phil b posted ?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: fur trapper] #1113393
01/10/09 07:53 PM
01/10/09 07:53 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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I made a statement eariler in the post with a error...

Its 50 to 60% of all fox are caught by actually working the sets..as it should...by working the HOLE. The rest are caught by scratching at the pattern...

Fur trapper, i have a folder filled with severals tudies done by the US Govt and universities...esp the Iowa fox studies doen in the last 60s...amazing stuff.

Phils "study" story isnt quite how it happened...

...and has no variance on this thread.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113422
01/10/09 08:00 PM
01/10/09 08:00 PM

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PSB1011
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PSB1011
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My study is exactly accurate.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113481
01/10/09 08:13 PM
01/10/09 08:13 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Phil, despite our past issues, I have the utmost respect for your trapping ability and drive..ambition. It is an ambition that few of us have..and you still push even at an age when many cannot or will not. I will always call you the Iron Man of fox trapping...

But why is it you so often refuse to talk or comment on deep and intelligent topics like this one? I mean, heck...no one is asking for secrets...just simple comments from someone who does well in fox trapping....whats your take on lures baits and urine?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113503
01/10/09 08:17 PM
01/10/09 08:17 PM
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Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
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Dave Plueger Offline
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Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
As my fur buyer once told me. Sometimes you need to know when to play dumb. Very wise advice!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113504
01/10/09 08:18 PM
01/10/09 08:18 PM
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Ickesburg,Pa.
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bigbrad115 Offline
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Ickesburg,Pa.
Phil and John, I'm not writing this out of disrespect,but you guys live in "the fox belt" of Pa. Where even a part time, half-arsed trapper like me could do a triple digit catch in a months time. Try coming north a few miles and see if you can pull your numbers. It won't happen. No matter what lure,bait,pee,small hole,big hole,no hole combo used.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bigbrad115] #1113523
01/10/09 08:23 PM
01/10/09 08:23 PM
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Posts: 3,439
PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Nightwish  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: bigbrad115
Phil and John, I'm not writing this out of disrespect,but you guys live in "the fox belt" of Pa. Where even a part time, half-arsed trapper like me could do a triple digit catch in a months time. Try coming north a few miles and see if you can pull your numbers. It won't happen. No matter what lure,bait,pee,small hole,big hole,no hole combo used.


You are right...

...and we dont even have as many as we used to...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1113658
01/10/09 08:59 PM
01/10/09 08:59 PM
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Dunnville, Kentucky
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KyCountry Offline
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Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
Every dirthole set I make is flashy, a 3" or 4" hole made into a backing and constructed in sand, short grass, reindeer moss, pine needles, etc so nothing is obstructing the view of the set for a considerable distance. I like lots of sand for eye appeal and fresh dirt also has an odor and calling of its own, canine will investigate fresh digging. I believe this is one of the secrets to more successful trapping of any animal species. Generally speaking, I make sets in groupings and at least one set in a grouping of hole sets is a post set, flat set or a blind scent set using a completely different more subtle lure that is specifically formulated for such sets. This will take the occasional wary or educated coyote/fox that might be wise from previous experiences to flashy dirtholes and loud scents. Asa


Asa, How many sets do you put in an area, and how big of an area are we talking about?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: KyCountry] #1113814
01/10/09 09:32 PM
01/10/09 09:32 PM

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PSB1011
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Originally Posted By: Nightwish
Phil, despite our past issues, I have the utmost respect for your trapping ability and drive..ambition. It is an ambition that few of us have..and you still push even at an age when many cannot or will not. I will always call you the Iron Man of fox trapping...

But why is it you so often refuse to talk or comment on deep and intelligent topics like this one? I mean, heck...no one is asking for secrets...just simple comments from someone who does well in fox trapping....whats your take on lures baits and urine?


I will state publicly why.
First,I have helped literaly hundreds,mabe even thousands to catch fox,and other animals,over many years.Likely ,I have caught more fox than anybody in thiis area for 25 years,except 2 years.I earned it the hard way,in things you have absolutly zero knowledge about.I won't sell my soul for a couple of bucks,and I wont give certian knowledge away because I don't owe it to anybody.Nobody.No one.Im not here to appear like im mr knowledge,or a know it all.Im not here to be popular.Im here to interact,and be friends with those I like,and enjoy being around.In the days you were a toddler,and before,I was trapping with little knowledge,verble,written,and otherwise,because it wasn't avalibe,as it should be.I became what I am because I learned it the hard way,the best way.Teaching the basics is just fine,and I have done it often,so often cause its the right thig to do.But beyound that,everyone is on their own.Kids,and others these days want everything handed to them,and if it is,they become worthless,and what they have obtained become meaningless.

I can say that at no time have I ever said im the best,im the greatest,or any such thing ever.I only ever stated the facts that happened that you called me a liar,a thief,a furbuyer,or I spiked my catch with previous years fox---all of which was not true.You did this for at least 4 years for the whole world to see,and hear,,,,,,simply because you could not comprehend the possibility that it could be done.You caught 300 fox in nearly 60 days trapping full time,good for you,wooopie,I can name several that caught 150 in half the time,working a full time job.And thats all fine and good,all of it,but you come on here with your referances to "studys" of this,and that,its all horse crap.Don't need them studys to catch fox.It took me ten years to catch my first fox,at least but it got done,and I took it from there.Imagine that.You talk of the greatness of peatmoss,you did not start using peat till mid last year,after another drilled it into your thick head.Now your an expert on the subject.That OK,just makes me sick thats all.All this intelligent talk garbage to me is bolony,im not real intellengent,I just like to talk to other trappers about anything at all,don't have no need to talk intelligent about trapping.
Running out of braincells,and im hungry,have a lot of other things to say but its not worth it.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113833
01/10/09 09:37 PM
01/10/09 09:37 PM
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Posts: 3,800
Iowa (where the tall corn grow...
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Dave Plueger Offline
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Well said Phil. With the numbers you have put up you dont need to prove anything to anyone!!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113839
01/10/09 09:37 PM
01/10/09 09:37 PM
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PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Nightwish  Offline OP
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Kids,and others these days want everything handed to them,and if it is,they become worthless,and what they have obtained become meaningless.

I agree with Phil on this one...

..and its your choice if you want to talk about stuff or not...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113859
01/10/09 09:42 PM
01/10/09 09:42 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Gulliver, Michigan
KY Country asked...Asa, How many sets do you put in an area, and how big of an area are we talking about?

Depending upon the amount of sign in the area, I generally make two or three dirthole sets all lured with the same lure (a lure with a food/hunger element) which is appropriate for hole sets and one scent post or blind scent set lured with a completely different odor (a urine/gland/passion lure) which is appropriate for sets without holes all within a 100' radius. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1113866
01/10/09 09:43 PM
01/10/09 09:43 PM
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Port Jervis, NY
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beachcomber13 Offline
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Very well spoken, PSB. I don't know anything about you but have had some thoughts about you simply being some mean old man. Didn't know about the stuff that I just read in your post. I'm sorry I thought bad about you..You're right, self taught is one of the most meaningful ways to learn anything.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113905
01/10/09 09:53 PM
01/10/09 09:53 PM

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Originally Posted By: beachcomber13
Very well spoken, PSB. I don't know anything about you but have had some thoughts about you simply being some mean old man. Didn't know about the stuff that I just read in your post. I'm sorry I thought bad about you..You're right, self taught is one of the most meaningful ways to learn anything.

Good grief youngone,im just short of 50,and am not mean,mostly.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1113908
01/10/09 09:53 PM
01/10/09 09:53 PM
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PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
KY Country asked...Asa, How many sets do you put in an area, and how big of an area are we talking about?

Depending upon the amount of sign in the area, I generally make two or three dirthole sets all lured with the same lure (a lure with a food/hunger element) which is appropriate for hole sets and one scent post or blind scent set lured with a completely different odor (a urine/gland/passion lure) which is appropriate for sets without holes all within a 100' radius. Asa


Asa,

With a normal temp of 32* how far do you think you can draw a fox or coyote with a normal dose of a good lure? Lets say with normal eye appeal and location..

How about at 0*?

Would it matter if it's fox or coyote?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: beachcomber13] #1113912
01/10/09 09:54 PM
01/10/09 09:54 PM
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Posts: 1,442
PA
cndgmn Offline
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Amen Phil.But I've got to disagree,not intelligent my ###.You may not be booksmart or an english major but you're darn sure smart enough.Its woodsmarts that catch fox anyhow not fancy writing or being wordy.I agree with everthing else you said.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1113926
01/10/09 09:58 PM
01/10/09 09:58 PM
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Eastern wv
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Phils not old! I meet him at the Maryland convention when fishguts was there. One look at phil and you can tell he is a [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] of a worker! He is a sculpted man that didn't get that way about thinking about doing something "HE did it" Phil I love your pics and vids.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1113968
01/10/09 10:10 PM
01/10/09 10:10 PM
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NY
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Mike367 Offline
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What really catches foxes is long traplines and lots of fox and hard work. There is no big secret and believe it or not its not brain surgery. Some trappers have just as much drive and time as Brown puts into his trapping, but can only muster 200 fox instead of 1200. Why is that you ask? Because Mr. Brown has MOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE fox to trap. Period end of story, its not his bladder pee or trail cams, its large populations. So if nightwish and phil could kiss and make up we can have some intelligent conversation. crazy

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1113998
01/10/09 10:17 PM
01/10/09 10:17 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mike367
What really catches foxes is long traplines and lots of fox and hard work. There is no big secret and believe it or not its not brain surgery. Some trappers have just as much drive and time as Brown puts into his trapping, but can only muster 200 fox instead of 1200. Why is that you ask? Because Mr. Brown has MOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE fox to trap. Period end of story, its not his bladder pee or trail cams, its large populations. So if nightwish and phil could kiss and make up we can have some intelligent conversation. crazy


Good post Mike..and I agree...

There's a fine gentleman just east of here who takes 150 to 200 fox a year on 8-12 farms...just screwing around on his way to work. I dont have those numbers. we always have to look at apples to apples.

I dont kiss guys..so sorry, no kissing and making up. But the war is over...both bulls are in their own pasture and the graze is aplenty. So is the amount of good info on this thread...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1114039
01/10/09 10:29 PM
01/10/09 10:29 PM
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Posts: 3,605
SW Pa
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wr otis Offline
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Nobody else in mr Brown's neighborhood is posting numbers like his, why do you suppose that is I am guessing it is because of mr browns work ethic, experience and smarts.
If you reread mr browns post I think you will see why things are the way they are.
Me personally I bought a couple of mr crawfords videos before I had heard of him, big mistake still mad about it.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: wr otis] #1114106
01/10/09 10:55 PM
01/10/09 10:55 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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I have a question for Asa...

You mentioned in a post a few years ago, about a study of coyotes where they used one drop of urine in a gal of water inside a room with fresh carpet. They turned loose some coyote pups to see hwo they'd react to the different bottles of water with urine in it.

Can you tell us about that again? Do you remember that one?

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1114114
01/10/09 10:58 PM
01/10/09 10:58 PM
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Posts: 6,163
Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Nightwish asked...
Asa,

With a normal temp of 32* how far do you think you can draw a fox or coyote with a normal dose of a good lure? Lets say with normal eye appeal and location..

I practice the theory that if one can't learn to place sets within 50 feet of where animals pass they will not rack up significant numbers. That being said, I have seen by tracks in the sand and snow of both fox and coyote make abrupt turns directly into a set from about 100 yards or so.

How about at 0*?

I've seen tracks in the snow making abrupt turns from 100 feet or so even by bobcats in that temperature. University studies concluded that cats can smell at least 25 times better than humans and canines can smell at least 400 times better than humans. Using that math along with seeing solid evidence of bobcats detecting lure at 100 feet in sub zero temperatures a canine should be able to come in from 800 feet. Whether it actually works that way is pure speculation because I believe it would be a rare instance when a canine would turn from its days agenda to come 800 feet over to investigate any odor.

Would it matter if it's fox or coyote?

No, I think they both smell equally well.
Asa

Last edited by Asa Lenon; 01/10/09 11:01 PM.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1114137
01/10/09 11:03 PM
01/10/09 11:03 PM
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Posts: 1,133
East TN.
High Noon Offline
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High Noon  Offline
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East TN.
This has been a good thread so far and I don't want to start any problems.

Phil, Asa, Bob J., Paul, Myself, and a host of others who have spent a lifetime of hard work, take time to answer alot of questions on this forum. They should not have to give answers if they feel that it is something that they don't want to share.
I share things that took me many years of 300+ days afield to learn. Countless other time and money used to learn about the habits of mature Whitetail Bucks. I have shared what I know about trapping and the ways in which I have made my catches.
However I will not share complete formulas for lures and baits and such. I also have a few secrets I keep to myself. It's called self preservation.

If I need to eat what I trap and hunt to survive do you think I'm gonna tell you all that I know? Sure Phil lives in and area that can support the amount of catches he makes. I lust to be able to have that in my area too. Yes some people could make some pretty good catches. But I've had people trap the same area's a few yards from me and I still caught more than them. I had to trap for a living for 2 years so I could put food on the table for my family. I'd go to bed many nights with tears in my eyes wondering how I was gonna feed my kids and myself feeling worthless. Do you think I'm gonna tell you everything I have learned?

It may seem to be a question that is what you consider simple. But if anyone doesn't want to share what they have learned then they are not bad people because of it. Here's how I would deal with Phil if I was in real need.

Hey Phil I need your help, I don't have any food on the table for my kids, can you watch me make a few sets and see if I can do something better? I have three traps do you think you could use one of mine and put it out on your line if you have time? Maybe I'm doing something wrong that you can't see me doing.

People might find that what they think is a simple answer to them might not be to someone else. Hey paul I need that Backbreaker formula so I can have some more lures to sell, sounds simple to me!

I think much has been said already on this post and that people just recieved alot of information. Use what you HAVE seen on here and USE that info. Be Glad you have a forum to go to for answers. I had to learn to hunt and trap the hard way. With no info and no one to show me how.

I give as much help to people that I can. I have givin away a few secrets to very few. I love to help people as much as I can but I won't tell everything I know except to my kids.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1114207
01/10/09 11:36 PM
01/10/09 11:36 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nightwish
I have a question for Asa...

You mentioned in a post a few years ago, about a study of coyotes where they used one drop of urine in a gal of water inside a room with fresh carpet. They turned loose some coyote pups to see hwo they'd react to the different bottles of water with urine in it.

Can you tell us about that again? Do you remember that one?


Without getting into lengthy detail, in effect a part of the test on canines smelling ability was to take one drop of coyote urine diluted with one gallon of pure water. Then they placed one drop of that diluted mixture on to a carpet and would let in a coyote pup. Every single pup was able to instantly find that one drop spot and urinate on it. The conclusion was that canines can smell a minimum of 400 times better than humans but perhaps they can smell millions of times better than we can. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1114222
01/10/09 11:43 PM
01/10/09 11:43 PM
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Posts: 1,133
East TN.
High Noon Offline
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East TN.
That's unreal! Glad they can't tell when I'm asleep, they might eat me! LOL

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1114249
01/10/09 11:48 PM
01/10/09 11:48 PM
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Posts: 3,439
PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Thanks Asa...amazing stuff there. That was an eye opening post for me...no doubt.

High Noon, I agree..and wasnt trying to entice...just asking, thats all. We all give and take...and this is a great resource for trappers of all ages...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1114260
01/10/09 11:55 PM
01/10/09 11:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,133
East TN.
High Noon Offline
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I wasn't trying to pick on YOU so to speak. Put it out there as a general reason some don't give out info. Were at four pages and many folks will read this post.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1114285
01/11/09 12:07 AM
01/11/09 12:07 AM
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PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Agreed!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1114290
01/11/09 12:11 AM
01/11/09 12:11 AM
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Posts: 154
Dunnville, Kentucky
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KyCountry Offline
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Dunnville, Kentucky
I think the ones that didn't comment on the topics but posted, gave good info just the same!! Everything in this post is more info than I've seen in most books, just without the fancy cover and a $10.00+ price tag.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: High Noon] #1114320
01/11/09 12:25 AM
01/11/09 12:25 AM
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Posts: 2,394
Central NY
NYNovice Offline
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This is a GREAT Post. And now for my own opinons. LOL.

If you follow any of my Posts on serious trapping issues you will find that I tend to always err on the side of covering my bases. LOL.
I generally don't use much bait, unless it is a dirthole I will occasionally use it, but for the most part if I am trapping Coyote, I like at least 2 smells at a coyote set, Just to cover my bases. But I will admit, When I use Asa's All Call lures, I only use that lure, Nothing else, and I do so with great success.
But I think a lot of that comes down to what you are confident in.
I have mentioned this a few times here, and Before the Crash we had a GREAT thread going about it, and I think it would kind of spur this conversation a bit more too.
It is a proven fact that confidence can be directly related to pheramones release and chemical make up of a person.

The conversation that Paul had started was that He and his father could trap the same area using the same baits/lures and one would catch more than the other. The set making was the same, as Charles had Taught Paul, but the outcomes would be different, and sometimes it would benefit one more than the other.
So now my question is, why is it that I might use a Lure with GREAT results, and yet someone else in my area could use the same lures, with the same types of setups and not be as successful.
We are going to assume for our purposes that everyone is on common Ground here and wearing gloves, wearing rubber boots, and not leaving scent around etc.
So does everyones chemical makeup have to do with their success as a fox/coyote/bobcat/wolf trapper?

And for the record. I am pretty certain that Phil would put up HUGE numbers no matter where he trapped so long as the animals were there. You don't just put up those kind of numbers because you put a trap in the ground. You have to have a process, and you have to have the know what you are looking at when you see it. What I mean is that to put up those numbers, you can't afford to have too many sets that don't connect, so EVERY set you make has to be as effective as it can be.
And that all comes from nothing but experience and Know how.
I can say this too. I am very excited to see some people involved in this thread. Anyone New, anyone young, you should know that the information in this thread is the stuff videos are made of. LOL.
You have the opinions and information from some of THE top K-9 trappers in the US involved in this thread.
ASA, Phil, Slim, Buzz, etc. Make no Mistake, These gentleman KNOW k-9 trapping.


TrapperMans FIRST Haiku Master:
Misted Over Dawn
Cherry Red On the Hillside
A Moment Stands Still


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: NYNovice] #1114476
01/11/09 01:39 AM
01/11/09 01:39 AM
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Posts: 3,231
south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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south east pa
ok i have seen a few posts ill comment on
1) crawford you said you have never had sucess with the staked out hole. I personally only use that i actualy dont even carry a trowel with me anymore. I know i know nothing about fox trappin but i took 102 reds offf 12 set locations. and non of them had large holes. I am assuming by you saying that,that i should have taken more fox from those spots because my holes where small?
2) bigbrad you talk of doing a 100 fox is a month and doing it half-butted. I would like to see that someday. I may not like Crawford but ii can tell you the man isnt doing it half heartedly. i dont know his exact numbers but i would assume he is doing roughly 150 a month or less. so your comment is kinda a stretch.IMO


And they way everyone is talking kinda takes phil and crawford outta the mix. If any bait and lure combo and any set can cat ch fox here than why ask any of us guys out here for help? Anytime someone from this area posts on fox and how to catch them at least one person talks about how easy we have it and come here and do it and how we catch this ,any cause our population is crazy. Then why ask us for help or to comment on things?Yes we have huge populations of fox here BUT that doesnt mean phil and crawford or any of us from this area cant trap very well. This whole SEPA fox thing getting outta hand. Yes we have alot of fox BUT we also have alot of great fox trappers here. and you can take any of us anywhere in the country to trap fox and we can scout,find, and catch said fox. So everyone needs to stop using the excuse that because we are in SEPA that we have stupid fox. I thought that for a small amount of time until this year when i relized you hav eto know how to trap to get triple digets and you really really have to know how to trap to get high triple digits and you are a Master of trappin with over 1000 a season.


red fox trapper wannabe.

Pro-sqeazin Pro Staff Member
"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1114671
01/11/09 09:00 AM
01/11/09 09:00 AM
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Posts: 3,036
New York
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Fire Fly Guy Offline
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New York
I few thoughts....

I am suprised those who use bait do not mention that after applying the bait, it is a good practice to whipe the bait stick a few inches in the side of the set. Kinda gives them a good smell of what's down the whole with out having to committ. Kinda makes them committ with less caution. Of course Charles Dobbins mentions this numerous times in his video, and I believe he felt this was very important. It works for me.


.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1114675
01/11/09 09:08 AM
01/11/09 09:08 AM
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Maine
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Mac Offline
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Maine
Interesting post. I am such a lowly canine trapper I should even read it much less post on it but what to heck.

NYnovie mentioned that Phil would have great catches any where he went. I don't know Phil personally but have talked with him on the phone, exchanged emails etc. I bet he would have no problem catching fur in any state. But even he will admit he would not make those giant fox catches say in Maine or Indiana. There is an old saying that you can not make chicken pie out of chicken crap, Well you cannot catch a bunch of fur that does not exist. I don't care how smart you are or how hard you work.

O'Gorman may very well be the greatest coyote trapper to walk the face of the earth but he would not have put up the catches he has if he was trapping where there were none or where they actually had check laws. Marty would not be the coyote and snaring guru he is if he lived in say PA due to the variables like people, check laws, accessiablity, etc. etc. I even doubt that Fossil would do 8 or 9 hundred mink a season in Maine or Ohio. Forgive me Fossil for bringing you into the mix. Pluger would have a heck of a time nailing a thousand raccoon in an area that did not have a thousand raccoon. Even the talented Zagmister would have trouble catching numbers of coyotes where the numbers did not exist.
Fact is facts.

So for those that think that the rest of the country are envious of SWPA, tell you what, many of us would like the fox numbers but few would want the rest of the area for anything. Period.

If you do not understand the fact that you need numbers to catch numbers or you do not understand that animals of high numbers areas act differently than the same specie in areas of low numbers, well you just plain don't understand. No one is taking away from any of the fox guru's ability or more importantly business management and work ethic. Not the point at all.

Walter Arnold once wrote in his fox book that when people say fox are not taking bait they are not usually offering anything to the fox that they want to eat.
(Walter Arnold was a pioneer in the lure industry. He was a prolific writer and a all around trapper. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Walter several times in his later years. He was old school no doubt. He was actually a very good writer in that he could take you there out on the line with him.)

When people talk about bait they are almost always talking about prepared bait of some sort.

I don't think Phil, Nightwish, or any other hot shoe will start carrying around buckets of fresh meat but here is something that youngsters might want to think about. As Kermit Stearns told me and often wrote about, young of the year critters are not great hunters and are looking for something to eat. I understand that in todays world a lot of the old time ideas of trapping are tossed aside or completely forgotten. One internet self styled trapping author professional guru recently found peat moss. Hold moly, what a discovery. Been using that since the late 70's. Does that make me smarter?
Well yes but that is beside the point. LOL

Just an old hobby trapper throwing his -.02 cents into the ring.

I learned a hard lesson a long time ago that I was reminded of reading one of Phil's posts. If you don't have something to sell, keep your yap shut when it comes to how much you catch. Plain and simple truth.


God Bless and take care
Mac

Last edited by Mac; 01/11/09 09:31 AM.


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1114684
01/11/09 09:18 AM
01/11/09 09:18 AM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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NY Novice wrote...
So now my question is, why is it that I might use a Lure with GREAT results, and yet someone else in my area could use the same lures, with the same types of setups and not be as successful.

Steven Trosper (where are you Steven) always brought up a good point and example about the individual chemical make up odor of a trapper affecting the success or failure of a trapper. If I remember correctly, Steven tells of his Uncle who was a very proficient red fox trapper but after becoming sick with cancer his catch steadily dropped to near zero. One would have to assume that a canines keen nose could smell desease or perhaps be repelled by the odor of medications oozing through his skin pores. However, this repeling would likely be the same regardless of the lure brand he was using.
Personally, I have given a lot of consideration to the idea that lures work for some people but not others. However, I am having a hard time buying that theory. Over 50 years every time I had a trapper who couldn't get animals to respond to my lures I could sit and talk with them or take a quick look at thier line and find the real reason for thier failure, point it out and instantly put them on the right path to success. The difference in how lures work for individuals in my opinion is simply in how they apply lures, the amount of lure they apply at sets and whether they use appropriate lures for appropriate sets in both strength and formulation, NOT in any clash between the lure's ingredients and the trappers individual chemical make-up. I may be wrong and my mind is still open but I'll have to see it to believe it. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1114703
01/11/09 09:37 AM
01/11/09 09:37 AM
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lennitrapper says:
And they way everyone is talking kinda takes phil and crawford outta the mix. If any bait and lure combo and any set can cat ch fox here than why ask any of us guys out here for help? Anytime someone from this area posts on fox and how to catch them at least one person talks about how easy we have it and come here and do it and how we catch this ,any cause our population is crazy. Then why ask us for help or to comment on things?Yes we have huge populations of fox here BUT that doesnt mean phil and crawford or any of us from this area cant trap very well. This whole SEPA fox thing getting outta hand. Yes we have alot of fox BUT we also have alot of great fox trappers here. and you can take any of us anywhere in the country to trap fox and we can scout,find, and catch said fox. So everyone needs to stop using the excuse that because we are in SEPA that we have stupid fox. I thought that for a small amount of time until this year when i relized you hav eto know how to trap to get triple digets and you really really have to know how to trap to get high triple digits and you are a Master of trappin with over 1000 a season.

lennitrapper, you make a good point. I know that the Leggetts took down good numbers and if they didn't share and I did not listen I would still be behind the eight ball. I love the people who share good information freely but also know that even though the populations in my area might be low but with the same information and hustle I can do a larger catch relative to my populations. I believe the two things that fit in here is
(1) jelousy if this is the right word..certain folks want the success of someone else for reasons like self gratification, recognition by others, income, etc but they only see the surface so they find excuses why the other guy is more successful. We see the end result and crave it but have no real idea what it took for the person to get there.
(2) drive...it takes real motivation and dedication to achieve these levels that many folks simply put do not have with either time restraints, finacial restraints or just plain lack of get up and go. Successful people are dedicated, perservering, etc.

I for one am happy being a hobby trapper so to speak but I do enjoy learning from those who share. So guys like you, phil, crawford and even Joe whoever that has information to share and is willing to do it, I for one am willing to read and learn from you. You too have to forget those folks that find excuses for they will find even more for other folks long after you are gone. I thank every person who has shared some tidbit to make me enjoy our sport even more and emphasize that sportmen more often than not are their own worst enemy and someday they will pay a very dear price for their divisions even though I wish for different.

This has been one of the more interesting ane thought provoking posts I have read for awhile. Thanksd guys for I enjoyed it.......Mac~


Although I have trapped over 50 years without a partner I am never alone...God and my Dad are always there with me.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1114705
01/11/09 09:39 AM
01/11/09 09:39 AM
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N. Dakota
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Slim Pedersen Offline
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Once again ASA you said a big mouth full that I agree with 100%


Proud to be a trapper and supporter of trapping organizations
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1114762
01/11/09 10:04 AM
01/11/09 10:04 AM
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Mike Taylor Offline
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Good reading and good ideas!!!!! Just remember....you don't win in a pee-pee-fight with a skunk!!!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1114778
01/11/09 10:15 AM
01/11/09 10:15 AM
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Mike367 Offline
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I agree as well with NY novice to a point. Phil is one hard working guy. I have learned about Mr. Brown many years ago when making many visits to Russ Carman's place in New Milford. I respect him and look up to him for his hard work ethic and his system and NOT BECAUSE HE CATCHES 1200 FOX A YEAR. Enough of this and back to lure. Location and pop. play a larger role in a catch than lure. Hunger may play a part in areas that get heavy snows or have very high populations in which competition for food works in. I would like to suggest a book for trappers wanting to learn more about foxes, its title is:" Red Fox The Cat Like Canine" by J. Henry. Its a very good read. My feelings on chunk bait are that if by chance the fox hooks the piece out without getting caught he or she will mark the spot with urine that tells other foxes I have cleaned this cache out. Most other foxes will avoid the set, now with Phil's video the catch circle already created by many other fox catches is actually the draw and will keep other foxes hanging around until caught. When using a good formulated lure at a set, if applied correctly at the very bottom of a dirt hole or at the very back of a trench set some of the lure will leach into the soil and when the fox works the set he will do so to get every part of that lure out of the hole. At all of my locations I make 2 sets, 90% of the time they are both step downs. Sometimes I make a sod set and use only a gland lure. I do use bladder urine sometimes late in the year when dispersed foxes are looking for mates and territories of their own. Most adult foxes are caught in re-makes of young of the year. The catch circle is a powerful tool. Again these are my thoughts and ramblings. Mike

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike Taylor] #1114781
01/11/09 10:18 AM
01/11/09 10:18 AM
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bic Offline
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I just want to thank all who posted, for the info contained in this thread.
If a person takes the time to read ALL of these pages and pull the bits and pieces of valuable information from them, One can obtain some very good "notebook" material here. THANKS


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bic] #1114953
01/11/09 12:07 PM
01/11/09 12:07 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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its goin to be very cold here for the next week.i am on my way out to reset my line now. i will use bait on one set and lure on another at a few spots and see how it works. ill take pitures and what not and tell what type of bait and lure it is, not the brand because well its all privatly made stuff


red fox trapper wannabe.

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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1114969
01/11/09 12:19 PM
01/11/09 12:19 PM
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Central Pa. 62
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bic Offline
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thanks Lennitrapper, I would like to see what your sets look like as well as the location of the set as it relates to the immediate area. That is the question I have longed for an answer to. Once you have where you will make a set..What are you looking for to pin point the EXACT set location. For instance. I want to set it at "this" clump of grass instead of "that" Rock that is 4 feet away (and Why).
(If that makes any sense)


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bic] #1115024
01/11/09 12:51 PM
01/11/09 12:51 PM
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kansas
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I think its being missed that its fairly important to know what various lures do to the animals you are after, in dirthole sets it seems to be the idea that for whatever reason the animal wants to get it out or stick his head in according to this thread anyways. With the right call lure the hole dont mean much or at other times can mean alot, for example if a lure really brings on the neck and shoulder rubbing thing you can just pour it on a large rock several inches higher than the trap bed and catch coyote after coyote, a decent paste bait smeared under a flat rock and the trap in front with a fair backing and he will get caught trying to move the rock, lenons super rangecoyote will take yote after yote with an open unblended pattern where they are thick by smearing some on a rabbitt foot and wireing it to a corner post with rusty baleing wire, ogorman and dobbins both have one that elicits so much scratching one can drill a hole in a tree with a trap out front and they will get caught trying to scratch the tree in two to get the lure out, dobbins has another one that when carefully slipped into a crack in a large bleached bone will chew on the bone until their teeth fall out to try and get it out and you can place the trap darn near anywhere and it will catch them, wany derrick has one that if slipped into a crack in a power line pole and the trap gets froze over the yote wull leave a considerable amount of his winter coat on the power line pole rubbing on it for a long time, if the trap fires its a whole new ball game as for some reason he stops all his rubbing but it sure is handy to use at times for me anyways, seems like knowing the lures means something to me and no i did not learn it on my own, i got the diea from one of dobbins books.


none
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: possum5676] #1115097
01/11/09 01:40 PM
01/11/09 01:40 PM
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Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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I think Phil is old smile

I like him but I personally would not kiss him. Sorry Phil.

On the subject of bait I think Asa earlier eluded to the fact that hauling around bait can contaminate your traps with bait smells. I agree especially if you are using a truck with a topper.

With my side doors on my toppers, and my style of trapping, I generally set up the back of my truck with the drivers side being the "coon side" and the passenger side being the "canine side". Meaning all the gear and bait for one is on its side, the other is on the other. The caught animals get stacked in the middle.

I generally have a bucket of coon bait on one side and a bucket of canine bait on the other, and the whole back of the truck inside the topper smells like bait.

When I keep my canine traps in the back of the truck they are in a wooden box with a lid on it, with some hay in there to buffer the traps from picking up smells that dominate the back of my truck. Also, I have a setup for the back set of my truck, where I can keep buckets of snares or buckets of canine traps there, and not have to worry about bait smells.

Water traps I do not care if they get bait smells on them. Dry land traps and snares I protect from bait smells.


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: ] #1115140
01/11/09 01:57 PM
01/11/09 01:57 PM
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Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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I would kiss Andy though.

Right you are Andy about the two being different.


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: k9.] #1115160
01/11/09 02:05 PM
01/11/09 02:05 PM
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Northumberland County, PA
LineMtnCooner Offline
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But they aren't extremely different on their likes of smells are they?


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: LineMtnCooner] #1115173
01/11/09 02:13 PM
01/11/09 02:13 PM
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Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Originally Posted By: LineMtnCooner
But they aren't extremely different on their likes of smells are they?


Garsh yes they are. You can't catch foxes on coyote urine, least thats what I heard smile (insert sarcasm here) That's why the Government trappers never catch red fox in ther summer coyote sets, cause they use coyote urine.

But seriously, most things that one will respond to the other will also. I would say the bigger difference would be the agressiveness a fox is willing to work a set, the location you might place the set, what you can get away with as far as natural looking sets from one species VS the other, etc.


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: k9.] #1115233
01/11/09 02:48 PM
01/11/09 02:48 PM
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SW Pa
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wr otis Offline
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SW Pa
Hey Mac, I do not know how good of a coyote trapper O'Gorman is, but I would bet only a couple of people have made more money in trapping related side businesses lure and instruction etc.
I would have to think the very best coyote trapper ever was someone only known locally who most never heard of.
There have been and still are a couple locals here who were tremendous trappers probably no one will ever here about them because they have nothing to sell.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: LineMtnCooner] #1115238
01/11/09 02:49 PM
01/11/09 02:49 PM
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NY
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Mike367 Offline
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I am talking red fox, I have zero experience with coyotes and limited with greys. In order for a fox to fully evaluate a complex smell as Mr. Lenon was talking about, he needs to touch it with his nose. That is the reason why a well rounded gland based, curiosity lure works so well. The glands spark that territorial instinct that foxes cant resist. If I could only have one lure it would the gland based/curiosity type. Lenon's all call is good as well as Blackies Bushmaster/ TKO. Again this is only my opinion. Its not the only way but its my way. I enjoy helping other trappers. Mike

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Mike367] #1116045
01/11/09 07:58 PM
01/11/09 07:58 PM
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Ickesburg,Pa.
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bigbrad115 Offline
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To Lennitrapper, As for my comment about being half-arsed,it was about ME. No one else. Facts are facts, the more fox,coon,possums,rats, ect. you have the more you will catch. I like to think of myself as a decent trapper that can catch a few critters. I'm no pro by any means. I'm a hobby trapper that does it on his vacation time from work. I trap predators from Nov.1 till the deer season opens. From there I work the water. John and Phil are good trappers in my book with a great work ethic. They also have two things I don't: Fox and Time to trap them in numbers.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bigbrad115] #1116113
01/11/09 08:18 PM
01/11/09 08:18 PM
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PA
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Quote:
John and Phil are good trappers in my book with a great work ethic. They also have two things I don't: Fox and Time to trap them in numbers.


Thanks big brad..and I agree...we are blessed down ehre...BUT NOT like some may think. Its not a massive stock pile like some think..it just isnt..

Good stuff ehre guys...keep it going.

Caught a HUGE male and female today...will post pics later. Breed is on and they're really agressive...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: bigbrad115] #1116136
01/11/09 08:23 PM
01/11/09 08:23 PM
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Posts: 368
NY
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2rivers Offline
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NY
Some should give zagger more credit than having a high population. Central ny is not a hotspot for coyotes , their are far better places in the country to trap coyotes.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts....Lure and/or bait [Re: 2rivers] #1116380
01/11/09 09:27 PM
01/11/09 09:27 PM
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Posts: 3,257
Northumberland County, PA
LineMtnCooner Offline
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TTT


Re: Lure makers and K9 experts....Lure and/or bait [Re: LineMtnCooner] #1116515
01/11/09 09:53 PM
01/11/09 09:53 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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ok i only took a few pictures. i always forget i have my camera.

this is a location. i have a set where my bag is and one across from it. where i am standing is a huge power break and there are two trails meeting up with it.woods behind me tall weed type things there at 11oclock to 2 oclock than more woods.

The Sets.
this one is kinda step down but it has taken liek 4 fox already so gettin a flat DH would be hard

this one has a huge hole due to fox diggin at it and due to 6 fox fallen prey to it already

O BTW the set near the bag has bait and the other set has lure


next location is along a creek i thought it was a deer trail when i set but have yet to see deer tracks in my circles.
far set has bait middle set has lure near set is pee(hay)



ask away about the pictures if you have questions


red fox trapper wannabe.

Pro-sqeazin Pro Staff Member
"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts....Lure and/or bait [Re: lennitrapper] #1116699
01/11/09 10:39 PM
01/11/09 10:39 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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TTT for Bic


red fox trapper wannabe.

Pro-sqeazin Pro Staff Member
"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1116791
01/11/09 11:04 PM
01/11/09 11:04 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
NY Novice wrote...
So now my question is, why is it that I might use a Lure with GREAT results, and yet someone else in my area could use the same lures, with the same types of setups and not be as successful.

Steven Trosper (where are you Steven) always brought up a good point and example about the individual chemical make up odor of a trapper affecting the success or failure of a trapper. If I remember correctly, Steven tells of his Uncle who was a very proficient red fox trapper but after becoming sick with cancer his catch steadily dropped to near zero. One would have to assume that a canines keen nose could smell desease or perhaps be repelled by the odor of medications oozing through his skin pores. However, this repeling would likely be the same regardless of the lure brand he was using.
Personally, I have given a lot of consideration to the idea that lures work for some people but not others. However, I am having a hard time buying that theory. Over 50 years every time I had a trapper who couldn't get animals to respond to my lures I could sit and talk with them or take a quick look at thier line and find the real reason for thier failure, point it out and instantly put them on the right path to success. The difference in how lures work for individuals in my opinion is simply in how they apply lures, the amount of lure they apply at sets and whether they use appropriate lures for appropriate sets in both strength and formulation, NOT in any clash between the lure's ingredients and the trappers individual chemical make-up. I may be wrong and my mind is still open but I'll have to see it to believe it. Asa


This is a VERY interesting theory..and i think there's something to it. I also think that some people may give off a human odor that WE can't smell..but THEY can...and it repels them.

For years, i'd set 40-50 or more traps on the first day of trapping...usually Nov 1 or therabouts...only to have ONE fox the next day. Only in the past 2 yrs has that changed..and it makes no sense. Perhaps I stink...no jokes please.

There's all kinds of weird and unknown things that happen in the animal kingdom...and among us humans. Ever have 3-4 women living in a house together? 99% of the time thier cycles line up...and why? I dont think anyone knows. Happens with dogs too...

We'll see how lures and baits work here in the east this weekend...they say below zero nights here on fri/sat...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1118182
01/12/09 05:04 PM
01/12/09 05:04 PM
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Central Pa. 62
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bic Offline
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Lennitrapper, I saw the pics. Thanks


Life always offers a second chance.
It's called Tomorrow
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1118255
01/12/09 05:29 PM
01/12/09 05:29 PM
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PA
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Quote:
Steven Trosper (where are you Steven) always brought up a good point and example about the individual chemical make up odor of a trapper affecting the success or failure of a trapper. If I remember correctly, Steven tells of his Uncle who was a very proficient red fox trapper but after becoming sick with cancer his catch steadily dropped to near zero. One would have to assume that a canines keen nose could smell desease or perhaps be repelled by the odor of medications oozing through his skin pores. However, this repeling would likely be the same regardless of the lure brand he was using.
Personally, I have given a lot of consideration to the idea that lures work for some people but not others. However, I am having a hard time buying that theory. Over 50 years every time I had a trapper who couldn't get animals to respond to my lures I could sit and talk with them or take a quick look at thier line and find the real reason for thier failure, point it out and instantly put them on the right path to success. The difference in how lures work for individuals in my opinion is simply in how they apply lures, the amount of lure they apply at sets and whether they use appropriate lures for appropriate sets in both strength and formulation, NOT in any clash between the lure's ingredients and the trappers individual chemical make-up. I may be wrong and my mind is still open but I'll have to see it to believe it. Asa


I dunno but going from personal experience I think there may be something to it.I've had my worst season in years and I attribute it to having a health scare and taking meds (herbal and otherwise)that I normally wouldn't take.It also caused me some worry that I'm not prone too that I think also had an affect.Late in the season I got things figured out(after numerous tests)and it appears I'm going to live even if I haven't completely given up smoking,I know.Well,I quit taking most everything and quit worrying and my catch started to improve after a few days.I could mark it off as sheer coincidence or a bad run but I think theres more to it.

I also have what I consider to be an icebreaker at the beginning of every season.It seems that I can't really hammer them until I get 4-5 and that foxy smell starts getting into my pores,then I really start to hammer them,call me crazy.You ever noticed how your sweat or farts start to smell after handling numerous animals??

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: cndgmn] #1118338
01/12/09 06:02 PM
01/12/09 06:02 PM
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Rich Kaspar Offline
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Size and Depth of dirtholes:

Ive noticed a lot of trappers who have bought drill augers have reported that their catch % have gone up and they see more digging/working at their sets.

I think what this is attributed to is before, they where digging a 4-8" dirthole,due to speed of getting more sets in and/or just hard digging ground, which when a critter sticks his snout down the hole, gets his curiousity satisfied very quickely as he can put his nose right on the bait/lure, and is on his way with less steps taken.

Once they start drilling holes, they pretty much run a deeper hole, 10-12" deep with nice straight sides and not as tapered as you many times get with a trowel, as its just that easy to drill a deeper hole compared to digging it.

Now, with a deeper hole most of the time, and a fox/coyote cant put his nose right on the bait/lure, they take a few more steps over the pattern, resulting in higher catch % per set to some degree.

Ive found that to be true some years ago trapping coyotes, once I started drilling deeper holes, I started catching more.

If you watch, really how many sets that approached but no catch is made, you really dont see just a ton of dug out holes, especially in warmer weather. Then, that one night before a front moves in, or the day after, especially with a snow on the ground, you get a large amount of dug out holes, I mean really worked over hard. With a crust of snow, or substandard anitfreeze used, and frozen in traps, you see a doz or more hard dug holes right after a snow, out of 50 or so sets. I see this especially on coyotes.

Think these coyotes all found those sets on that one day or 2 after a snow? Na, they knew where they where at all along, just the weather put them into "feeding" mode. They moved hard trying to clean up all potential meals they knew about when the weather changed.

So I tend to believe a deeper hole does get more coyotes/fox on those indifferent days they just kinda check your stuff out, they will sniff/dig just a little harder at a deeper hole they cant get their nose right on your attractor, and on average, take more steps over the pattern.

Not saying a deep hole is gonna double your catch, but deeper holes with catch you more fur over a seasons time.

RK

afterthought: In what reduced coyote/fox steel trapping Ive done in last 10 years, I seem to see less catchable coyotes till later in year compared to 10-12 years ago. I attribute this to our expanded deer seasons and numbers of permits, along with an higher deer populations. Many more novice hunters in the field, and one heck of a lot more dead deer laying around from wounding from at times seems an army of newbie deer hunters running around. All those deer carcasses laying around keep the predators well fed and many times camped out on deer carcasses thru most of December any more, w/o the need for a lot of traveling to scroung up a meal, hence less catchable fur due to minimul movement.

Cats will sometimes camp out real hard on a deer carcass, couple years ago on a nice cedar pasture, I had 8-10 sets on all the good cat travelways covered, on a good section that usually does 2-4 cats, and about always get 1-2 with in first week, or less. After 10-12 days and no cats, I poked around on a fresh snow, and found 2 cat tracks camped out on deer carcasses in this section. They werent moving out of an area as big as a city block. I stuck 2 sets on each right in their small A.O., and had them both the next check. They just sat on their meal and didnt move enough to hit sets on their usuall travelways. I had to get right in amonsnt them to catch them.


Last edited by Rich Kaspar; 01/12/09 06:15 PM.

If you are considering yourself to be someone of influence and importance, just try ordering someone elses dog around sometime.
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Rich Kaspar] #1118653
01/12/09 07:40 PM
01/12/09 07:40 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Rich Kaspar] #1118752
01/12/09 08:06 PM
01/12/09 08:06 PM
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KyCountry Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rich Kaspar
Size and Depth of dirtholes:

Ive noticed a lot of trappers who have bought drill augers have reported that their catch % have gone up and they see more digging/working at their sets.


One could also come to the conclusion that with the faster holes and less hand work on them would also lower the human scent left at the set. which would also increase the chance of the set being worked.

Note about me: I am no expert by no means!!

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: KyCountry] #1119395
01/12/09 10:34 PM
01/12/09 10:34 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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I'll go with both ideas, deeper holes cause more mystery and set working like Rich stated, I always make holes 3" to 4" in diameter and at least 10" to 12" deep and believe that contributes to maximum harvesting.
I also agree with KYCountry, the less time spent at a set the less scent left at the set and the sooner the set will likely be committed to.
Paying attention to all such details is the big secret that adds up maximum set response and maximum harvesting one by one by one. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1119503
01/12/09 10:57 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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Asa, how do you dig a hole so deep? By hand or with auger?

One of my favorite trick sets is to auger out a DH with a 40" auger...make the DH 18-24" and put soemthing at the bottom of the hole...then switch lures. You'll have your culprit the next day...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1119569
01/12/09 11:12 PM
01/12/09 11:12 PM
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Gulliver, Michigan
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Asa Lenon Offline
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No problem digging holes in my country at 95% of locations Nightwish. Most of the country is Lake Superior and Lake Michigan sand and normally I just use a trowell or a long handles bread mixing spoon. There are a few places where there is hard, gravely ground that takes some effort but what I do is chop the ground with a hatchet until I get through the hard stuff and then take the hammer side of the hatchet and pound a good sturdy trowell on down deeper into the ground. Asa

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Asa Lenon] #1119589
01/12/09 11:18 PM
01/12/09 11:18 PM
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Nightwish Offline OP
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ha, I need to move there...my arms kill me from pounding stakes and digging...

I do everything with a steel handled spade, then dig with the trowel. Guys in our Mtns have it rougher than I...

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Nightwish] #1119722
01/12/09 11:48 PM
01/12/09 11:48 PM
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Southern Utah
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Striker Offline
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Mtns in Pa HA Ha Ha. Come to the rockies and you will see boulders. Some place will only allow you to drive a stake into the ground 6 inches. Best then to anchor to a tree and make a flat set.

Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: Striker] #1120554
01/13/09 12:19 PM
01/13/09 12:19 PM
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south east pa
lennitrapper Offline
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red fox trapper wannabe.

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"What was your bait?? Cobra?" white 17
Re: Lure makers and K9 experts.....Lure and/or bai [Re: lennitrapper] #1124466
01/14/09 08:37 PM
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