very interesting that He studied the book of Romans and figured out the truth.

Which Protestant denomination is currently carrying the torch of "truth"?

Works are evidence that one has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, we are bond servants to our Master. Works will never gain you salvation, nor will paying pentence. We are powerless no matter how good of a person we are if we fail to accept Jesus Christ and his teachings as presented in the Canonized Holy Bible.

We are saved by the grace of God, freely given and not earned. But I have known people who were devout Christians early in life, who surely were in a state of salvation, but who later in life lost the faith and became atheists. Are they still saved?

you know that was an interesting sermon yesterday

with the conclusion all of them and none of them.
any institution will be plagued by the issues of men , yet any institution that brings people to Jesus is united with christ.
because Jesus prays for all the future believers as well in John 17 he is setting the stage for all future believers to join him as well.

This isnt meant to stir up division it is a mere observation based on a study of Martin Luther and how he came to the conclusion that the works based teaching were not the way described by Christ. I have no issue with however one chooses to interpret any denomination. I alone answer for myself at the Great White Throne of Judgement as will every soul ever created by God the Father.

John 14:6 tells us, as stated by Jesus Christ himself, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Romans 8:31-39
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And yet Martin Luther didn't like the Epistle of James because of the pesky works stuff. He called it an epistle of straw.

Hebrews 6: 4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

So it is possible to lose salvation.

That's how I understand it based on Paul's writing.

And yet that's not what the Calvinists teach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

I really worry about the once saved always saved movement. There just isn't any scripture to back it up and lot's of people are betting their eternity on it. the argument is God will not take your salvation away, which is true, but you sure can give it back. mikec

I don't believe in predestination, but rather in free will. We are all predestined to spend eternity with the Lord based on our choice to believe or not. If God predestines or chooses just certain people, there are those who would have no chance of salvation because their fate had already been predetermined .

Im torn on the once saved always saved. It thas been taught at at least one church I have gone to but neither made since to me.

Go off latter and murder and rape people and your covered. If your doing that are you/ were you truly saved. When you started wanting to be more like christ you stop doing a lot of sinful behavior and have behavior changes. A lot of people look at that and think I don't want to give xyz up. But the thing is when the changs happens xyz no longer has the same appeal to you and since you colonies are interested in it your not giving it up your desire has changed.

Then there is sin is sin one is no worse than the next. Hard to wrap my head around. Lying is as bad a murderer is hard for my flesh to comprehend.

But then look at all the sin those saved commit on a daily basis maybe as simple as the girl in yoga pants catching your eye and you look a sec to long. Happens every day after salvation and the gift of salvation has been accepted. So if sin is sin and someone commits murder then they should still be forgiven? Hard to swallow but im just a man the created not the creator.

Now being saved and later rejecting it seems like free will has a place and they should be able to choose to change their mind.

The Great Commission from John 20:


Why did Jesus authorize his disciples to forgive sins?

Martin did say that about the book of James, however, read what he was saying because he was still thinking in works based salvation. Thats not what the brother of Jesus was saying, your works are because of your faith through salvation, not works to achieve salvation. Go back and read these things. Martin Luther missed the point of what James was saying. Because of Salvation through our saviour Jesus Christ we will do those things which in time will Glorify God. As opposed to, you do good works to seek salvation, which is all about you and not the acceptance of Jesus Christ.

List the scriptures where Jesus authorized the disciples to forgive sins. Do you not or have you not read what John the Baptist said as Jesus approached, Behold the Lamb of God who will take away the sins of the World.

If you wish to prove a point, quote scripture within its entirety and within i context.

Go back to John 20, read the entire chapter and dont take it out of context. Jesus was saying, whoever has sinned against you, look up the scripture verse by verse in the old greek and hebrew and you will see what was meant. Mere men can not forgive anyone of their transgressions. Forgive us of our transgressions as we forgive those who have transgressed against us. THe blood of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can wash away our sins.

Those who are deeply imbedded in this mindset wont change your minds. A few will. thats why I teach a mens transition bible study from one faith to another. Folks are fleeing this one doctrine to seek a better understanding.

What did the Apostle Paul after his conversion on the road to Damascus. We are born into sin. yes accepting jesus christ brings us to the foot of the cross, in humility. Many will and have entered into a backslidden state. WE all have at times. Thats why the blood of Christ is so precious. come back and repent and then get back on track. Those folks on death row are only bound by the bars and shackles of men. Once they truly accept Christ, everything changes. It is far better for them to be in iron chains than the spriritual warfare chains of Satan.

The choice is ours. Since God exists outside of time, space and matter, he is all knowing. We are not. Since God declares he knows the end from the beginning. Think about that. He has known us since before the foundation of time. That correlates with Times of Old, Ancient times. Which in Hebrew, going back to Genesis 1:1, prior to that is what they refer to as the point in which time vanishes as it wasnt documented.

If we could wrap our brains around God, Then we would see him as something equal and he would not be large enough for us to worship.

Do you read old Greek and Hebrew?

So, if one has fallen away, then he must repent before he's back on track?

Ah, so you and Luther have a differing interpretation of James. What makes you right and him wrong in this case?

If you can fall from Grace, then Grace isn't enough?

If they live a good life and treat others with respect and honor - yes.

we cant live a good enough life!!! thats the fault with most other man made religions and false doctrinal theological ideologies. we cant save ourselves no matter what we do. The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves us. Martin Luther was in error about the Book of James. Read it for yourself. If you are relying on a certain false doctrinal belief, then you will not see this just as the Pharisees couldnt see that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied about since the book of Genesis through Moses. 300 plus prophesies fulfilled to the smallest detailed. Now, there are over 1000 prophesies about the end times. And, if you read Matthew 24, Luke 21-22, you will see what Jesus told his 11 Disciples to look for upon Part one of his second coming. That is the rapture, we are seeing all of this currently. Paul describes and tells us about this in Thessolonians .

This is the problem with a certain sect which proclaim to be Christian. You only listen to what is said by a man in a black robe, you think a man, flesh and blood can absolve you of your sins, you worship Mary the mother of Jesus, You pray to her instead of the one seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for us in prayer, you think paying the church can remove sin, you think that you can pray others out of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), this is all a false doctrine, no different than many others that came about after the false prophet mohammed and islam.

GEt a bible and read it for yourself. it will explain itself if you are truly a child of our Savior Jesus Christ. If you arent you can post all you wish but when the time of judgement arrives, you will hear, Depart from me I never knew you.

Dont be mad at me!! You have been deceived

One of main reasons Luther even began researching was he didn’t believe in the fact that you could buy away your sins, and that a person on earth could forgive your sins, indulgences are these I believe, he believed you should live right and only god could forgive sins.

Ok, so I've read this and I'm trying to understand. Let me make sure I have this right. If works alone are not enough to get a person into Heaven, then do they matter at all?

Sheepdog says that works are evidence that one has accepted Jesus. Ok, makes sense. But what about someone that accepts Jesus as their savior, but whose works continue to be those of the sort that do not glorify God or follow along the lines of Jesus' teachings?

I'm not speaking here of someone who occasionally sins, realizes their sin, and then asks forgiveness for it. I'm speaking of people that accept Jesus as their savior but continue to live a life of sin either because (A) they simply want to or (B) they don't believe their sin should be considered a sin or even (C) they truly believe their sin is NOT a sin (but in God's eyes it is).

Will people like that see the Kingdom of Heaven so long as in their heart they do believe that Jesus is their Savior?

Yes. IMO.

1Co 10:23  All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 

And then:
Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 
Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 

This is debated as much as the Trinity; Law vs Grace. Arminianism vs Calvinism,
I'm neither one. I don't think it's a salvation issue. Study for yourself and pick a side.

I'm not a fan of James myself.

"This is the problem with a certain sect which proclaim to be Christian. You only listen to what is said by a man in a black robe, you think a man, flesh and blood can absolve you of your sins, you worship Mary the mother of Jesus, You pray to her instead of the one seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for us in prayer, you think paying the church can remove sin, you think that you can pray others out of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), this is all a false doctrine, no different than many others that came about after the false prophet mohammed and islam."


I'll pray a few Hail Marys and pray to God to open your eyes to the ignorance you spew. You're welcome .

May St. Francis De Sales and all those holy men and women which defended the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church during the turbulent time following the erroneous “reformation” pray for us, and through their intercession obtain the graces necessary to call all of our Protestant seperated brethren home to the only church founded by Christ Himself and which offers Himself fully to us in the presence of the Sacrament of the Eucharist, whose magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit, and which honors (not worships) Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth! The true Christian faith is, has, and always will be Catholic Veni, Sancte Spiritus!

Hello, I encourage you to more fully explore the Catholic faith and its teachings. Your assertions are made in error as none of them are truthful representations of the faith. The Catholic Faith is the fullness of truth! May God Bless you and keep you!

https://www.catholic.com/


^A great place to start

That is absolutely not true.

By thier fruit you will know them.
Just because someone says they are Christian doesn't mean they are. I think belief is more than belief, if you understand what I mean. Belief in the Bible includes trust and goes deeper than merely believing something happened.

Martin believed some things that most Protestants would disagree with today, such as Mary being sinless. He was, after all, catholic before he became convinced that the church was corrupt. He didn't want to start a new church, he was trying to reform the existing one, but it didn't happen.

Maybe a state of Grace needs to be maintained?

Martin Luther believed in Real Presence in the Eucharist. There are still some Protestants who believe this, but of course many who don't.

Forgiveness of sins is one of the major benefits of the death of Jesus. On the other hand, if a person rejects Jesus' sacrifice, then that person is not forgiven. That's the authority Jesus gave to his disciples.

Well put. Man can't even come close to imagining the greatness of God. It's so far beyond our comprehension.

I think that's God's problem to sort out. All those who are truly Christians are still sinful, it's normal for the flesh to sin. Paul said so in Chapter 7 of Romans v14-20. "I'm not practicing what I'd like to do, but I'm doing the very thing I do not wish to do. So, I'm no longer doing it, but sin which indwells me. For the good that I wish, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

While Luther disagreed with some things the Catholic church was teaching when he left it he still carried over some of their traditions.

Amen.
Peace be with you.

Wouldn't such a condition make us under the law?

From Matthew 19:

As I read it, that parable suggest you can't serve two Gods. Money being that other "god" of the rich young man's heart.

Yes, it says that, but it also explicitly says to keep the commandments as a condition for eternal life, does it not?

Yes it does but Jesus was speaking to a Jewish fellow who was under the law. Under the law ,keeping the commandments would have been necessary for righteousness. Under the new covenant the blood of Jesus is sufficient for righteousness.

I don't buy it. Jesus didn't say to keep the entire Law of Moses; he explicitly said to keep the commandments, and then specifically listed them. Indeed, earlier in this same chapter, Jesus expressed strong disagreement with the Law of Moses regarding divorce. Jesus didn't qualify any of this by saying it only applies to Jews.

Precisely.

What's up with Sheepdog starting this post and then running off, anyways? LOL

Well don't we all believe we have to maintain faith to stay in a state of grace? That's not law, but living by the spirit.

Angela, I'm a Catholic convert. The very first words I said to Stephanie ( my wife ) was, " I'm gonna pick this apart. "
That was ten years ago. Theres no holes in it. It's all there. It's complete. Katholokos in Greek. I couldn't find a flaw in it.

Flaws in how the Church conducted business. Sure. But the dogma is sound. I'm not leaving it.
In the words of Andrew Wouters , " Fornicator I was,heretic never. " That was just before he was hung among the Martyrs .
I'm not a member of The Church because of the Vatican, or a pope. Because its all there. Everything you need to gain is literally right there.
My friend, I've survived suicide attempts ( those defied logic) , a stroke that nobody can explain how I'm functional today , and a gut sepsis requiring a colostomy leaving me with nothing more than some really cool scars.
I pray my Rosary , I request prayers from my unseen friends ( the saints) , and confess my sins in accordance to scripture.
And I'm still learning.
Its hard to talk someone like Sheepdog. My Dad is a retired Baptist pastor. We don't talk theology. Dad's just glad I'm no longer faith apathetic.

Precisely my brother.

Well, Aaron, all I know is 90% of the atheists I know were raised Catholic. Hard to believe that's a coincidence.

I have learned something of Catholics from this thread, I didn't know Catholics believed in the ability to lose salvation.

Martin Luther ,also,didn't believe in 'Once Saved,Always Saved'.

I didnt run off, just sitting back until such time as I can begin answering questions with scriptures, within context. plus I dont have a signal sitting in a hospital with my 88 year old Dad. Given time I will respond, with scripture, in context of the entirety.

Its not a coincidence, Catholicism is a false religion based on false theology. You would have to be a devout village idiot to believe that Mary, the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ would even remotely be ok with folks praying to her instead of Jesus CHrist. Peter was one of the first called by Christ as an apostle. He was hanged on a cross upside down. Do you even remotely think that he would acquiesce to him being the firtst" BS Pope of Catholiscism" yall are delusional at best. he walked with Jesus for 3.5 years. That is the most asinine thing one could ever conjure up.

Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, scientology, christian science, islam, budhism and hindu BS are all religions Satan has twisted the scripture and some of our population has drank the coolaid. I know for a fact that the catholic church does not want you to read the bible on your own because they want you to listen to the dude or homosexual woman telling you what to believe. The very same for the current methodist bunch. Plenty of other protestant non churches. Yall can cry all you want but when the great white throne of Judgement comes to you and you get herded to the left with the goats. You have have no excuse. I am saying all of this to get you to read YOUR BIBLE and see for yourself. The true Gospel is what was taught by those with Christ on his time on this earth. Paul, He saw Jesus on the road to Damascus and everything he taught came from that encounter because up to that he was killing Christians.

What other sect of supposed Christianity is being killed at alarming rates at this writing, It isnt any of those mentioned above. If you are Catholic, read your bible and figure it out. your eternity depends on this. I dont dislike you. I am warning you about your eternal life

Brother,there's so much disinformation in that ,that'll take me quite a bit to unpack. Unbelievably so.
That said , hate hearing your Dad has been hospitalized and I'm praying for you and your Dad for recovery.

But by being your own Bishop , enlighten us.

By that same logic , 90% of the protestants I've known would've better off being agnostic. People hate accountability. Why hold true to a faith that demands it ?

Incidentally, Catholic and Orthodox church numbers are growing worldwide. The people want to be fed.

I will gladly read my bible, which books included where determined by the authority of the original Catholic Church fathers, and discern what I read with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Your indictments of what a Catholic is and what we believe is misguided. And Our Lady, who is Queen of Heaven and Earth, gave us the Rosary and specifically instructed us to pray for the conversion of sinners, that she will obtain graces from her son. She does want us to pray to her! Time and time again she has appeared on the Earth to instruct us of just this practice. Recall the Wedding Feast at Cana, did Jesus not listen to his Mother when she asked him to turn the water into wine? Of course not! He listens to his Mother! Why would I not pray that she take my intentions to the Lord when he has demonstrated he clearly listens to his Mother? I love our Lady, she intercedes for the entire world, along with St Joseph her most chaste spouse and my role model.

The evil one is both an accuser and a divider. The “reformation” was a division that splintered the flock into many false denominations. I will hold fast to the original and ever lasting Catholic faith and will stake my salvation upon it. Its teachings are true and the magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit. I will not be deceived to follow any other religion.

Additionally, trying to “teach” a Catholic to not be Catholic using a Catholic book (The Bible) will not succeed. The truth points to the Catholic Church at all times

Be curious enough to seek the origin of the Christian Bible. Not hard to find. Well documented.

What? The Catholic Church doesn't have female priests. Are you thinking of Anglicans?

If you are staking your salvation only on the fact that you are a Catholic, that isn't what the bible teaches, even the Catholic version. I know where you are coming from, as I was a Catholic for many years and felt the way you do. Then I really started reading the Catholic bible. I realized my salvation was
based on my faith of our risen Lord Jesus, not because I was a Catholic.

I consider myself a Christian who is a follower of Christ. I have friends who still remain Catholics that believe as I do. Though, we may disagree on some issues, there is no doubt in my mind that they are as saved as I am because they believe what the bible teaches.

Please believe me when I say I mean well for you.

I'm not real sure this is the kinda guy I'd be wanting to use as a role model of Christian virtues......

Will we be judged based on works? From Romans 2:

Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the source and summit of the Christian life. He said, “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood shall have eternal life”. Because the Catholic Church is the only religion that has Christ’s real presence in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, yes I will continue to stake my salvation upon its teachings.The many Eucharistic miracles provide additional evidence pointing toward the truth of the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, not symbolically but physically manifested through transubstantiation. I hope one day you will return home to the fullness of truth, Come, Holy Spirt!

So many people are convinced thier denomination alone holds the truth. Someone needs to point out the place in the Bible where it says to follow a certain religion. I see Jesus says to follow him, but not a certain sect.

He instituted a Church.

According to that church. The orthodox also believe they are the original church. Jesus never told us to follow a religion.

The Latin Rite and the Greek Rite belong to the same Universal Catholic Church, so technically speaking yes the Orthodox can claim they are the original church founded by Christ, just as Roman Catholics can. That argument does not discredit the Catholic Church being the religion founded by Christ himself.

It also does not make other true Christians outside the church because the church isn't an organization, it's every one with a certain belief system, and that's a pretty simple system. Believe in your heart and confess Christ with your mouth, and you are part of the Church.
Again, if that isn't correct, show me from scripture where God says one certain sect has the truth.

There’s more to it than that.
John 6:53 (ESV): 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
For many Protestants, He’s just using metaphor or hyperbole. It’s a mere symbolic. But when He heard his followers detesting that statement,He didn’t retract. He meant it. And this was never a dispute in the early Church. For us , it still isn’t.

Aaron, yes, we have a difference of opinion about what Jesus was talking about there and why people left. It wasn't even about Eucurist. But Protestants do take communion.

But don’t believe in it as being essential even , though, Jesus himself states that it is . Again , nobody in the early Church ever denied this. Even Martin Luther ( who this thread is about) never disputed it .

Did the thief on the cross take communion?

The thief on the Cross was in an exceptional situation without there being an occasion or opportunity to receive the Eucharist. And !...his sins were absolved by Jesus ,himself. We can,however .

Which brings me back to what I alluded to earlier: why should I believe that your church got everything right and some other church is wrong in thier interpretation of the same scripture? If we are saved by doing this or that ritual, are we not still under the law, just a different law? One church says women must wear head covers, another says no cars, another says, drinking a glass of wine is sinful, or dancing, or all kinds of things I don't see forbidden in the Bible. All foolish Galations, trying to get there by law instead of trusting Jesus to be enough.

. .. I seen some pictures of the male catholic high ups wearing what looks like dresses

… what’s the deal with that ?

I was raised a very devout Catholic but now I call myself a Borne Again Heathen. Gonna stay that way.

Moosetrot

My friend ,you're going to have to go down a rabbit hole a little bit to find out those answers. Outside of scripture, I'd invite you to get a copy of the Complete Works of the Church Fathers . I hope you have an e-reader because its over 55,000 pages long. It'll contain the writings of Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp , who were both taught by the Apostle John , along with Justyn Martyr , Clement of Rome and many others.

So along with reading Scripture , I'll cross reference it with The Complete Works of the Church Fathers. The answers are complete. Another good one is "The Didache" . It's a first century Greek manual on how a Church is to conduct itself and how to worship.

All that said, keep in mind that a printed Bible was pretty uncommon for the greater part of Christianity. So they HAD to rely on other media .

To reiterate, when my then to-be wife asked me to convert, I told her I would ; but I was going to pick it apart. And I tried.

Cool story. Lol

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches, along with the Church of the East, have maintained Apostolic Succession and therefore their sacraments are mutually valid.

Christ prayed at the Last Supper, “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me”. Christ instituted the Catholic Church and called his believers to be one. The Catholic Church is the “one” roof under which we His sheep take refuge, why would I ever follow the teachings of a “reformed” denomination which departed from Mother Church? The Catholic church’s infallibility and over 2000 year history of tradition and apostolic succession offers so much for us weary souls who are in such need of Christ’s mercy and forgiveness. Praise Him for giving us his bridegroom the Church on this Earth to serve as our refuge and means for grace in this troubled world.

Amen

Infallible? Have you paid attention to your pope's? They sure aren't Infallible.

The Church ! My man, the Church.

Have you ever considered renouncing you're citizenship due to politics/actions of our government ? Why should I renounce my faith over the same ?

Christ’s vicar on Earth, the Pope, come and go throughout the ages as they are mortal men who pass away as we all will, hopefully waiting for Christ’s second coming. Some have been given the title of “Great” and canonized as Saints… others not so. But the Catholic Church remains, steadfast for over 2000 years through many generations of men, as it is infallible- the Church itself. We believe it will never cease to exist for it is Christ’s Church and the Holy Spirit intercedes on Her behalf providing divine protection.

How can a religious organization be infallible when it's done so many evil things? You know where of I speak. We call the bible infallible because it's true. But your organization hasn't remained in the truth. It's been a mix of good and evil.

I think the same can be said of any denomination.

I think that's the point PA is making.

But what can't be disputed is that Christianity began with the Catholic Church. The first time ' Catholic ' was uttered was used by St Ignatius of Antioch around 100 AD. A disciple of St John. You all should really read his writings .

A Church 2000 years in the making. You don't think there wouldn't be scandal over 2 millennia ? We've only been a country for 250 years. Look at us. No shortage of. In 250 years, we've now have Constitutional scholars( Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama) who can't accept what " shall be not infringed" means.

I'll take Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement's take any day over Pastor Bob's at the Cowboy Church any day of the week.

Go back to the roots.

None of you will, but I'd invite you to.read " The Jewish Roots of the Eucharist " and "The Jewish Roots of Mary". Its available through Amazon. We can't deny that Christianity came up through Abraham Judaism, and the author will.show you verse by verse why it's all there.
But it will challenge how you think.

… can’t deny Islam didn’t either

… I am neither of Jewish or Arab ancestry (Semitic)

… so make a case why I should follow an offshoot of their religions ?

You can absolutely deny.Islam. That's an easy prove. Didn't even come about until somewhere around 600 AD.

… Islam is an offshoot of Judaism it acknowledges most of the people in the Old Testament… Abraham and the like … as does Christianity… the prophet is just different

Categorically very different. They still deny Jesus as God, even though the book of Isaiah prophesied that he would b, "shall be called Emmanuel meaning God is with us". I

They deny that.

Interestingly enough when we Catholics refer to ," Mary , Mother of God" , protestants get butt hurt over that term there's scriptural reference for it . " Mother of Emmanuel, God is with Us".

And bro , I'm into the " bourbon hours". I'm past.my cognitive time functioning. Lol

The Catholic Church is not evil, nor are her doctrines. The Catholic Church is infallible- it is protected by the Holy Spirit and it will persist long after the erroneous teachings of Luther or Calvin have faded away. The people who make up the flock are not infallible, however, and this is who you are referring to when you say “done so many evil things”. This is why we must pray for holy Priests, Deacons, Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope. They to are made of flesh and subject to the temptations of this fallen world. You must separate in your mind the Church and its members. People are sinful and have caused hardship and scandal throughout the ages, but through it all, the Church persists and it will continue to until Christ returns.

I love this guy.

… the Jews deny Jesus was God just like the Muslims… yet Christians like them

… none of it makes much sense to me from the jump

… much less all the bickering between the different sects of Christianity

… I think the only ones going to heaven are maybe the snake handlers

.. but even they fall short of drinking poison

.. Jim jones and company excluded of course

You're a bird dog chasing it's tail , bro.

Go back to it's roots.

.. I would consider that if I knew what you meant by “it’s”

I spent my grade school years in a Catholic school. We were taught by nuns who were very nice people. We were taught that Catholics were the only people who would go to heaven. For a long time I grew up believing that.

I knew a lady who was a Lutheran. She told me pretty much the same thing about the Lutheran church. She said there may be non-Lutherans in heaven, but it would be very difficult for them to get there.

Later in life I belonged to a Catholic church. I asked the priest if we could possibly start a bible study in the church. He told me bible studies were of the devil and said absolutely not would he allow a bible study. The church would interpret the bible and I didn't need anything else. So, I changed Catholic churches where the priest in that church not only allowed bible studies, but taught it himself. After a time of biblical study there, I began to see the errors in the Catholic church.

These same divisions of churches aren't new, but even go back to Paul's time. In 1Cor 1: 12-13 "Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or, were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

I don't feel there is any church that is 100% correct in their biblical teachings. Regardless of that, right or wrong anyone can attain salvation simply by faith in Christ. It's not as hard of a thing to grasp as some people try to make it.

By the way, the first church was really the teachings of the disciples and Paul. According to history, the Catholic churches origins came about in 590C.E. by Pope Gregory. This time marked consolidation of land controlled by authority of the the pope and later became known as the "papal states". Prior to that there was no Catholic church.

Devotion has nothing to do with denominations. Don't limit God.

What is the church? People. It's not a building.

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

That predates Pope Gregory. There was a catholic, as in universal, church and it wasn't Protestant.

But does anyone not understand how corrupt this church had become when Luther did his thing?
It was the rebels who brought scripture to the common people rejected paying the church indulgences to supposedly get their loved ones out of purgatory.

Christianity began with Christ. Not something that came 100 years after him and not something that Christ never mentioned. God and Christ pretty clearly laid out a plan for salvation in the Bible and not once have I heard then mention of the Catholic Church in that plan. And I'll defer to the the Bible and the Holy Spirit above anything else.

The Church is an institution. In this regard it is infallible, the institutional doctrine and teachings in which it interprets through the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit. Let’s say for example I begin to take classes at a University. I would not say that “I am the University” but rather I am enrolled as a student, becoming part of the institution. The same could be said for the Catholic Church. I myself am confirmed Catholic, a member of the Holy institution on Earth which makes the Sacraments available to me, a lowly sinner. I am not infallible, but the Church and her Doctrine as an institution are. It will simply never fail, despite the animosity toward her, as it is protected by the Holy Spirit, unlike the Protestant denominations which have splintered over and over, divided and fragmented- which cannot be denied and is great evidence against their “claims” to truth.

For 1,500 years the Catholic Church persisted in faith. There were 17 ecumenical councils prior, where the Magisterium firmly clarified doctrinal disputes- which teachings were guided by the Holy Spirit. Why did Luther suddenly decide that the only means of resolving internal corruption within the Catholic Church was to sever himself from it completely? Christ said, “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” Luther’s response was in direct opposition to Christ and his will for the Catholic Church to remain one. Again, how was leaving Mother Church the solution? It was not. Reform must be done within, not without- which is precisely Protestantism’s biggest error, to solve is to exclude, to leave, to fragment … until there is no faith left- which is exactly what the Enemy desires. Return home to the Catholic Faith and experience the fullness of Christ’s truth, he desires for you to have the Sacraments in your life- without them, we are in grave danger as if we were soldiers without the armor in which Christ gives us to persist in this fallen world where evil preys upon the ruin of Souls.

Luther tried to reform it and the leadership refused. You can't have a religion institution thats oppressing people in direct opposition to God's word, burning people for reading scripture, forcing the poor to pay for the souls of their loved ones, totally corrupt doctrine, and call it infallible.

Does the Catholic Church teach that the only way to Salvation is through them? And if they do can you show me in the Bible where it says that?

You accuse the Catholic Church of many wrongdoings in the past, with little regard for its present status. Why? I invite you to find any “totally corrupt doctrine”, I assure you- you will not. Current review of the Catholic Church and its teachings indicates: It does not oppress or teach oppression, it does not punish (or burn) people for reading the scriptures or teach to, it does not force the poor to “pay for their or the souls of their loved ones” or teach to. Holy men and women, who remained firm in the Catholic Faith addressed these challenges, but it took time. Therefore, the Protestant separation was not necessary. To view separation as the correct course of action to the adversity Luther faced when attempting to change certain practices of the time is incorrect, rash, and conceited. The further multiplication of denominations continues to perpetuate this error, and I pray for Christian unity. St. Robert Bellarmine, Pray for Us!

No the Catholic Church does not claim that, however it does possess the Fullness of Means to Salvation through Christ. No Protestant or other religion can claim the fullness of means (they lack the Sacraments and Apostolic teaching). The second Vatican Council does recognize that elements of truth and sanctification can exist outside the Catholic Church, however why would one not seek the fullness of the means and truth?

Well, if we took that approach, America would not exist. When an institution or government becomes too corrupt, it's time to try something new. I can find lots of corruption in your church in just the last few years and you know that's the case, but I'm not just picking on one church, that's true of many. And Catholic doctrine has changed, so again, how could it be infallible? It isn't. The Protestants recognize the issue and only call the bible infallible, not any institution.

I would say the Catholic Church showing tough love to heretics by burning them at the stake or stretching their body parts on racks to be a totally corrupt doctrine.

And then there is John Tetzel extorting the poor folks for money to pay their loved ones into heaven. Or, out of purgatory/jail.